From my point of view, the old project died due to a lot of reasons. Differing ideas, Rumours of a Tau update, near continuous codex creep from official codexi, I'm sure the list can go further.
But I'm sure with the begin of a new Edition, now is the prime time to throw some fuel onto the old embers of this project. I'm not sure if Ravager will take the reins of the actual writing, but that can be decided later.
We can either start from scratch, or if someone is willing to find a copy of the previous 2S Codex, then that would be excellent. But I just realised I have a copy of 2S'Dex Ver 0.45 (https://www.box.com/s/1e2c56b053cf12c367ce)
I'd like to say right now though:
There are no dumb ideas, only misguide observations.
Well I thinks its all but a given that the Barracuda will be coming in. Might have a significant rewrite though.
New rules, well Railrifles might get Sniper?
I think the Skyray might be getting a significant work over aswell, probably getting Skyfire like it used to be in the beginning.
I have a PDF version of an old Fandex (It says v450 on it, but that could mean 4.5). If someone can explain how to get a link to it on here then I can do that (at the moment its just a PDF on my PC so I assume I need to upload it to a website of some sort first).
Hmm, i don't seem ta have a copy of the old Official rules for Barracudas, so the 2S'Dex rules will have to do.
As per the rulebook ,having the "Sniper" USR, would actual be worse for Rail Rifles, as it specificaly states a Sniper weapon is S3. They merely need to be updated to include the "Precision Shot" Character rule. We also wound most things on a 3+ or better, so another eason why the Sniper USR is worse.
From observation and discussion with avid Sky Ray users, I think it merely needs the ability to "Reload" its Seeker Missiles. Aside from that, no huge amounts of work need to be directed at it.
@Cammerz
I have the same copy, and I can easily upload it to a PDF sharing site.
I'll update the OP with the link once it's done.
If I am honest, The best version for the Skyray I have seen was the 2Sdex version. You either fire up to 3 missiles at a time, OR you can fire a Battlecannon shot as Barrage.
Well the 2S'dex does need a clean-up still.
If I remember correctly, there are a lot of references to rules and abilities from older versions, and somes rules will either need replacement or re-write with 6th Edition core rules.
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on July 13, 2012, 10:39:01 AM
New rules, well Railrifles might get Sniper?
I think the Skyray might be getting a significant work over aswell, probably getting Skyfire like it used to be in the beginning.
So you want Sniper weapons that wound most things on 2+ and ignore the armour of pretty much everything? (assuming I'm remembering the stats correctly) These things had better cost an arm and a leg. Eldar cost ~20pts a pop and aren't that good.
No issues with the Skyray getting Skyfire though. :)
As I've said before, Tau don't need many boosts as they stand, they simply need tweaking and a couple of new toys, like 'Nids did when 4th became 5th. Instead we got Crudface and nerfed into oblivion while his beloved Guard got everything we needed and then some. Hopefully this project can find a happy medium.
I will say 1 thing though, Flechettes need a SERIOUS revamp. They are terribly broken in their current incarnation. Being abole to wipe out half a unit of genestealers BEFORE they attack for just 10pts is absurd.
Railrifle is only 1 Strength over a Heavy Bolter. They are expensive aswell. Although as stated Sniper would be a step down. Just Precision Fire is all that is needed.
You raise a point Mkoll.
Should this project be for writing a completely new, Fan-dex for Tau, or to write a fan-made Errata for Tau?
Skyfire seems like an obvious choce to add to Sky Rays.
What about Markerlights? There are a fair few new Universal Special rules we could effectively make into Markerlight abilities. Skyfire, Blind, Interceptor (vehicle only?), Monster Hunter, Split Fire, could all be abilities confered onto units through a similar use of markerlights to how we use them now.
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on July 13, 2012, 11:36:57 AM
Railrifle is only 1 Strength over a Heavy Bolter. They are expensive aswell. Although as stated Sniper would be a step down. Just Precision Fire is all that is needed.
Ok, so wounding almost everything on 2+, insta-gibbing several races, and ignoring armour in ~50% of cases. Add in Precision fire and you're talking roughly 30pts for 1 pathfinder with that I would say. Give or take.
Quote from: Narric of 4th Sphere on July 13, 2012, 11:37:53 AM
Should this project be for writing a completely new, Fan-dex for Tau, or to write a fan-made Errata for Tau?
What about Markerlights? There are a fair few new Universal Special rules we could effectively make into Markerlight abilities. Skyfire, Blind, Interceptor (vehicle only?), Monster Hunter, Split Fire, could all be abilities confered onto units through a similar use of markerlights to how we use them now.
I have no problem with this being a new codex, it's easier to introduce shiny new toys that way. :)
Markerlights, frankly, I think are powerful enough at the moment. They're one of the reasons I feel Tau don't need major boosts. They're still the only army in the game who can negate a cover save with rapid fire weapons from their Troops choices, something which has been made even easier with the recent changes to cover.
Quote from: Warmaster Russ on July 13, 2012, 11:44:30 AM
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on July 13, 2012, 11:36:57 AM
Railrifle is only 1 Strength over a Heavy Bolter. They are expensive aswell. Although as stated Sniper would be a step down. Just Precision Fire is all that is needed.
Ok, so wounding almost everything on 2+, insta-gibbing several races, and ignoring armour in ~50% of cases. Add in Precision fire and you're talking roughly 30pts for 1 pathfinder with that I would say. Give or take.
How about Elite Pathfinders, with this ability regardless of weapon? :P
It could work. Remember, Grotesques? They were effectly turned into two new units, one keeping the name, the other the appearence. Maybe something similar could happen with Pathfinders?
Quote from: Warmaster Russ on July 13, 2012, 11:44:30 AM
Quote from: Narric of 4th Sphere on July 13, 2012, 11:37:53 AM
Should this project be for writing a completely new, Fan-dex for Tau, or to write a fan-made Errata for Tau?
What about Markerlights? There are a fair few new Universal Special rules we could effectively make into Markerlight abilities. Skyfire, Blind, Interceptor (vehicle only?), Monster Hunter, Split Fire, could all be abilities confered onto units through a similar use of markerlights to how we use them now.
I have no problem with this being a new codex, it's easier to introduce shiny new toys that way. :)
Markerlights, frankly, I think are powerful enough at the moment. They're one of the reasons I feel Tau don't need major boosts. They're still the only army in the game who can negate a cover save with rapid fire weapons from their Troops choices, something which has been made even easier with the recent changes to cover.
I'll try and keep track of changes. I won't go full blown Codex just yet, as right now we're kinda just being a think-tank.
For Pathies to get a railrifle they have to give up the Markerlight. Asking 30 points is a bit steep given the loss involved. As it stands I think Pathies are 3 less than a Grey Hunter and +10 for the upgrade. Plus the mandatory Devilfish.
Quote from: Narric of 4th Sphere on July 13, 2012, 11:49:59 AM
Quote from: Warmaster Russ on July 13, 2012, 11:44:30 AM
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on July 13, 2012, 11:36:57 AM
Railrifle is only 1 Strength over a Heavy Bolter. They are expensive aswell. Although as stated Sniper would be a step down. Just Precision Fire is all that is needed.
Ok, so wounding almost everything on 2+, insta-gibbing several races, and ignoring armour in ~50% of cases. Add in Precision fire and you're talking roughly 30pts for 1 pathfinder with that I would say. Give or take.
How about Elite Pathfinders, with this ability regardless of weapon? :P
If they pay for it, sure. But their weapons would have to cost more as a result of this rule applying in the same way that Tyranid weapons costed more depending on the strength of the creature in 4th.
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on July 13, 2012, 11:50:41 AM
For Pathies to get a railrifle they have to give up the Markerlight. Asking 30 points is a bit steep given the loss involved. As it stands I think Pathies are 3 less than a Grey Hunter and +10 for the upgrade. Plus the mandatory Devilfish.
Yes but they give up a markerlight for a weapon which can insta-gib quite a lot of people out there and deny them an armour save in the process. Bear in mind I said 30pts for the weapon AND the guy carrying it, not just for the weapon. However, that may be a bit much. 25 perhaps? Just more than an Eldar Pathfinder, but a lot more likely to wound.
Dont forget that as it stand the Eldar Pathfinders have Rending AND a possible AP1 shot. In this edition that is huge.
Quote from: Warmaster Russ on July 13, 2012, 11:44:30 AM
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on July 13, 2012, 11:36:57 AM
Railrifle is only 1 Strength over a Heavy Bolter. They are expensive aswell. Although as stated Sniper would be a step down. Just Precision Fire is all that is needed.
Ok, so wounding almost everything on 2+, insta-gibbing several races, and ignoring armour in ~50% of cases. Add in Precision fire and you're talking roughly 30pts for 1 pathfinder with that I would say. Give or take.
Just sayin', Rail Rifle-equipped Pathfinders are almost 30pts/pop anyway. So that sounds fair to me :P
And don't forget, they're only T3 Sv4+, so they're not exactly durable themselves.
That is true. And you always have to consider that if you want to take them you MUST take a Devilfish for them.
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on July 13, 2012, 12:00:04 PM
Dont forget that as it stand the Eldar Pathfinders have Rending AND a possible AP1 shot. In this edition that is huge.
Yes, I'm aware of that, but they can't insta-gib an Archon with that. Or a Guard commander, or a Farseer. The Strength is what's upping their price. S5 would be cheaper as there's no chance of instant kills.
What are the current arguments for getting rid of the Devilfish requierment for taking Pathfinders?
They actually do gain Scout when the PF are embarked, and in my last game, though my Devilfish was Destroyed, my unit of Pathfinders were fine.
The OPTION to take one would be fine. Its the fact that you MUST spend a good 80points or so just get a good number of markerlights on the field that grates. Or if the Devilfish was actually a good transport.
I have always been a fan of the Skyray being given to the pathfinders. Or it being an upgrade option for them.
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on July 13, 2012, 12:21:41 PM
The OPTION to take one would be fine. Its the fact that you MUST spend a good 80points or so just get a good number of markerlights on the field that grates. Or if the Devilfish was actually a good transport.
I have always been a fan of the Skyray being given to the pathfinders. Or it being an upgrade option for them.
Again, this is where points tweaking comes in I think. About 65~70 seems more reasonable for a Devilfish. It's a skimmer so it gets Jink for moving now, it's not Fast so can't boost that like a Raider can, but it's not open-topped and has significantly better armour than a Raider. Personally I would say 70 then playtest.
Does a Skyray have a transport capacity at the minute?
What about a specific Devilfish Variant for Pathfinder Units?
A Markerlight Array mounted on the Turret Port, effectly the inverse of a Sky Ray.
Give it a minor tansport capactity, say 6 Models for an average size PF unit, and it should be good.
Quote from: Warmaster Russ on July 13, 2012, 12:27:39 PM
Does a Skyray have a transport capacity at the minute?
Thats a no. I believe the 2S'Dex does.
The devilfish also lacks any kind of decent weaponry. its ALL 5/5.
The option for a TL battlesuit weapon on the turret would make it immensly more useful. The fact that you cant fire out of it is also a bugger because it's "pressurised" which is a stupid argument once you have reached groud level. And if you take a penetrating hit over the course of the game, you are no longer pressurised anyway.
A Skyray with an 8 man capacity id not unreasonable. Account for some bracing for the roof and some tagetting computers and you can justify losing 4 people.
Do your have some sort of Razorback type Devilfish variant to suggest?
I would say make the Devilfish chassis 60 points.
Turret mounted weapon:
TL Missile Pod +10
TL Plasma Rifle + 20
TL Burst Cannons +5
Then you can have either a Chin Mounted Burst Cannon for 5 points or a Marker Turret for 10.
Gun Drones as standard.
No need to reduce the capacity.
Or for 40points you can add a Skyray Missile Wing in place of the turret weapon. Thats the Skyray Turret as it is in the Tau Empire Codex now, with one use seekers and the Networked Markers.
The usual Vehicle upgrades can be added at the players discretion.
That sounds cool ,but I question how the turret would be modeled. No way in hell am I paying for the Forge World turrets to use in a regular game.
I have a devilfish I'm willing to scrap, for science. I'll see about converting the capula to include space for the weapons. I will say it won't be a novices conversion opportunity.
The Sky Ray as is, should not get transport capacity. The armor is too strong for one, and the Sky Ray should have Skyfire and Interceptor on its Marker Lights at a minimum.
Should there be a Skyfire weapon option for 'Fish, 'Head, and Rays sponsons?
Anyone else want to point out Target Locks and Split Fire?
Get a Kinder Egg and use the capsule inside (avoid the mockolate at all costs). Cut maybe the top 1/4 off the capsule and attatch that to the cupola (cant remember exactly how big they are). Then add the 2 weapons to that, one on either side, and add some standard details, maybe a target lock and some sensors, many make a small vent in the back. Should look fine :)
That sounds terrible >_< I'm sure in your mind it does look good, but to me it doesn't sound very inspiring.
Quote from: Charistoph on July 13, 2012, 03:40:39 PM
The Sky Ray as is, should not get transport capacity. The armor is too strong for one, and the Sky Ray should have Skyfire and Interceptor on its Marker Lights at a minimum.
Should there be a Skyfire weapon option for 'Fish, 'Head, and Rays sponsons?
Anyone else want to point out Target Locks and Split Fire?
I happen to agree with you, transports don't have a place in the Heavy Support of the Tau.
Only on its Markerlights? Shouldn't they be the whole models SRs, not specific weapons?
Devilfish, no.The Hammerhead however, could do with an optional system to confers Skyfire. I think Interceptor would be ott for a hammerhead, so should stay on the Sky Ray.
Onto Broadsides. Perhaps they could have an upgrade that confers Tank Hunters? would relieve the Hammerhead to take out enemy Air-support, and makes enemy ground armour hesitant to move from cover.
I don't know if a railgun would really be an effective AA weapon, seeing it is a single shot gun. The ion cannon definitely would be though, I think that gun should have skyfire added to its codex entry certainly. That way it also might be a more viable choice than it is now.
Skyfire on the Ion Cannon would work, but that still means you are losing a Railgun. But it just wouldnt work on a Railgun.
I do know that I will be using the Plasma Turret more often now though.
Okay, some thoughts:
First off, the Tau have already received a power boost in 5th due to the new Rapid Fire rules. Not only can they outrange most people whilst remaining mobile (remember, that extra 6" means you effectively get a 'free' turn of shooting), but the fact that Rapid Fire is now 2 shots at
half range, not 12", means they can sit back out of the enemy's optimum range and unleash hell. Before anyone says "but the other guys can just move 3-6" and shoot back!" consider what those inches might actually mean; 3" is the difference between holding an objective and not, between being in cover and not, between being out of charge range of a Kroot unit or not.
In addition, Snap Fire indirectly benefits the Tau more than most. Tau have the single best standard weapon in the game; the Pulse Rifle. At str 5 it is enough to make even a Space Marine think twice about whether they can laugh it off. They can also, point for point, put more bodies down than Marines can. That means that, on paper at least, Tau should have a stronger overwatch than Marines. I know its not much - around one extra kill per ten Firewarriors, but how many combats have been won and lost by having one extra man in the press?
Overall, out of all the core Infantry, I'd say Firewarriors have benefited the most from 6th's changes.
Realistically, I'd say all the Tau need for 6th is to be given a Barracuda, and to have a few adjustments made to their rules. The things that spring to mind for me are:
- Target Lock (the one that lets you split fire with squads) needs to be changed to grant the ability in the 6th Edition rulebook that allows a single model to fire at a different unit. The moment I saw that I was convinced it was written just for the Tau.
- Apply various alterations mentioned in the FAQ (ie: Stealthsuits gaining Stealth and Shrouded).
- Make Krootox T6 again.
That's... well, that's the bulk of what's needed. No 'Razorback'fish, no trying to put other Caste members onto the table, no making up whole new units to fill a tactical niche that only exists in the head of the author. Update some rules and tweak some points, and the Tau Codex will be a scary thing to face on the table without being broken, or stupidly fanboyish.
I agree a lot with what Wargamer has said here. 6th has mostly buffed shooting and weakened CC, which is purely benefit for Tau since we never want to be in combat. We don't need a ton of things I think, just the addition of a flyer, either a barracuda or something similar, some adjustments to fit in with new rules (target locks, skyfire on some weapons like sky ray perhaps, etc.) and they should be golden.
That said, I see nothing wrong with adding some fun things in the 2Sdex, since this is for fun. While things like the devil-backs isn't necessary for a balanced 6th ed tau codex, it is a fun addition if priced correctly.
Sounds like we simply need to make a Second Sphere Errata for Tau.
Quote from: many..
The OPTION to take one would be fine....
I have always been a fan of the Skyray being given to the pathfinders...
The devilfish also lacks any kind of decent weaponry...
The option for a TL battlesuit weapon on the turret would make it immensly more useful. The fact that you cant fire out of it is also a bugger because it's "pressurised" which is a stupid argument once you have reached groud level. And if you take a penetrating hit over the course of the game, you are no longer pressurised anyway.
A Skyray with an 8 man capacity id not unreasonable. Account for some bracing for the roof and some tagetting computers and you can justify losing 4 people.
'Fish being mandatory is nonsense, since ppl fill them with warriors if they want. I second making that an option. Skyray attachment is a bit overpowered imho.
Turret for the fish is not necessary either, and would be very much a copy of the imperial vehicles out there.
Suggestions:
- If you want a rewrite, dedicate a subsection of the forum to it.
- Agree on the general trends and goals before going into details such as point costs for vehicle upgrades.
- I volunteer for the overseer position if Ravager does not.
- I have a copy of the TOdex 475 rules if anyone is interested
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on July 13, 2012, 02:46:11 PM
I would say make the Devilfish chassis 60 points.
60 seems too cheap for me personally. It's armour 12, with jink. A Raider costs that much and, while it is fast, it's 2 armour points lower on front and side.
Skyfire for the Ion Cannon makes sense, no problems there.
Devilfish optional for Pathfinders makes sense.
I would second the vote on no for a Turretfish. Not because it's a copy if Imperial vehicles or anythung, but because given the number of suits you can fit into an army with those weapon options anyway it seems a bit redundant.
Krootox back to their original toughness would be fine by me. (I thought they were T5 initially, but whichever it was is fine)
Krootox were T 5(3), which would still make them the same as they currently are, for all intents and purposes.
One thought I would propose, drop the Shaper's W to 1, A to 2, and points to a 10 point upgrade. This allows the higher Shapers a finer distinction, as well easily allowing for an upgrade instead of such a weighty consideration.
Quote from: Charistoph on July 16, 2012, 05:30:55 PM
Krootox were T 5(3), which would still make them the same as they currently are, for all intents and purposes.
In 3rd edition Krootox were T3(5), which would of course make them T5 in the current ruleset (which makes more sense than T3) although we can always hide them in the middle of a large unit of kroot and hope the enemy don't have snipers to target them.
Quote from: Cammerz on July 16, 2012, 07:19:49 PM
Quote from: Charistoph on July 16, 2012, 05:30:55 PM
Krootox were T 5(3), which would still make them the same as they currently are, for all intents and purposes.
In 3rd edition Krootox were T3(5), which would of course make them T5 in the current ruleset (which makes more sense than T3) although we can always hide them in the middle of a large unit of kroot and hope the enemy don't have snipers to target them.
I could have sworn it was T5(3). T5 for the Ox, (3) for the rider. It's what I get for posting the stats with my codex collection at a different location.
Quote from: Charistoph on July 16, 2012, 07:56:57 PM
Quote from: Cammerz on July 16, 2012, 07:19:49 PM
Quote from: Charistoph on July 16, 2012, 05:30:55 PM
Krootox were T 5(3), which would still make them the same as they currently are, for all intents and purposes.
In 3rd edition Krootox were T3(5), which would of course make them T5 in the current ruleset (which makes more sense than T3) although we can always hide them in the middle of a large unit of kroot and hope the enemy don't have snipers to target them.
I could have sworn it was T5(3). T5 for the Ox, (3) for the rider. It's what I get for posting the stats with my codex collection at a different location.
It all counts as one model, the 5 part was the main toughness but the 3 was used for purposes of instant death (much like marine bikers which were T4(5). The simple way to remember it is that the smaller number goes first).
I have the old Chapter Approved of the Kroot Mercenary list. Cammerz is right.
However, in the current rules of Codex: Tau Empire, the Krootox is ignored, and only the "Riders" stats are used for Toughness, but the model uses the Krootox's Strength in combat. It also had triple to wounds of a regular Kroot.
Could we do something for the Krootox, which makes them work something similar to a Imperial Guard Heavy Weapons team? Probably excluding the part where we trade two Kroot for a Krootox.
For the challenges in balance it would cause, and the super buffs of the current sniper weapon I think it might be easier if we were to simply drop the rail rifle in favour of the sniper rifle. At the end of the day, they are basically the same. One is a little stronger, one always wounds on a 4+. One is AP3, one has rending. The differences are pretty small, and we'd gain more than we lost. I already play an allied contingent of eldar pathfinders because they fill a niche we can't, I say we just go all the way with it.
For anti-air, I think we shouldn't just go giving everything in our heavy support sky-fire/interceptor. Our skyray was designed to take out flyers, so lets let it do that. Our smaller flyers (remoras and barracudas) were meant to rule the skys so let's let them do that. Maybe throw in some turret mounted anti-air... but I'd say we definitely shouldn't go overboard on the skyfire considering how rare it is amongst other armies.
Kroot definitely could do with some interesting stuff (as always). I'm digging the idea of krootox weapon teams. Maybe bring back individual traits like the old tyranid book/chapter approved kroot?
Now that Drone Turrets are availiable, they could be upgraded with Skyfire.
For anti-air, make the Skyray's markerlight a skyfire weapon. It was never meant as an artillery piece, so just give it back its original role. Against ground units, it provides a nice big seeker missile collection for them to call in.
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on August 14, 2012, 12:41:40 AM
Now that Drone Turrets are availiable, they could be upgraded with Skyfire.
Or mayhaps Skyfire Drones?
That doesn't quite work right in my head for some reason... Unless they were Skyfire ML Drones that called offboard Seekers...
how about somebody decides to start with the thing OVERALL, before such small details are discussed like skyfire on the skyray or not.
Well that's easy; overall, very little needs to change. Some point costs need to be altered, some rules need to be rewritten or scrapped altogether to bring the Codex into line with 6th, some wargear or abilities need to be replaced with USRs, and a Flyer needs to be included.
So, with the 'overall' bit done before we started, lets go back to specifics.
fine.
someone needs to take a lead on this if it is to become even mildly successful. this project needs a dedicated sub section in this forum as a start
No it doesn't. The best way to tank a project is to apply management. Managers exist only to fuck things up.
If you want it to succeed, find people who get things done, and then let them get on with it. Dra'tsuich-Novae managed to write an entire Corsair Codex just by asking for help from a few well-chosen people as and when required, and the result is a far better army than you see in most 'well organised' projects.
Quote from: Wargamer on August 14, 2012, 09:44:01 PM
The best way to tank a project is to apply management. Managers exist only to y'xa'uk things up.
than it was the wrong lead(er)
His point is that the 'right leader' emerges naturally by dint of being whichever person ends up Getting Stuff Done. And that when you pick someone arbitrarily and say "No one else can Get Stuff Done without this guy's permission," you're squashing initiative by manufacturing extra red tape. All that does is hamper people's creativity, and cause the ones who could have Gotten Stuff Done to lose interest as a result.
Curiosity thought. Should the Carbines gain the Blind rule instead of Pinning? And/or the Photon Grenades?
Quote from: Charistoph on September 03, 2012, 06:38:19 AM
Curiosity thought. Should the Carbines gain the Blind rule instead of Pinning? And/or the Photon Grenades?
I've considered this myself.
My thoughts would be the Photon Grenades having the SR, while Carbines should have the ability to fire Grenades further. Say either upto 12" or maybe 15". I know I'm basing that on the game-canon of "Fire Warrior" but it might give people reason to take Carbines. And Think of your Pathfinders, equip them all with EMPs, and no armour would dare come near you.
Quote from: Narric of 4th Sphere on September 03, 2012, 08:12:03 AM
Quote from: Charistoph on September 03, 2012, 06:38:19 AM
Curiosity thought. Should the Carbines gain the Blind rule instead of Pinning? And/or the Photon Grenades?
I've considered this myself.
My thoughts would be the Photon Grenades having the SR, while Carbines should have the ability to fire Grenades further. Say either upto 12" or maybe 15". I know I'm basing that on the game-canon of "Fire Warrior" but it might give people reason to take Carbines. And Think of your Pathfinders, equip them all with EMPs, and no armour would dare come near you.
Well the reason for the Pinning rule was that all the Carbines also had an underslung grenade launcher. But if those grenades had the Blind rule, it would be doubly worth taking basic Gun Drones in any squad that could take them.
Now, if we could only "shoot" defensive grenades... Bah, that wouldn't be hard to right in...
OR replace it for every model with Photon Grenades and a Pulse Carbine... Too clunky.
Why not make Carbines work similarly to Combi-weapons? Why try invent our own rules when esisting ones can be reconfigured?
Considering the ability, I fthink we should keep the single shot (one use per game) in place, so non-tau players won't complain.
Going down this road, I think Carbines should then become Assault 2, no pinning, whilst the lunched Grenade's effect reflects what they are equipped with. So Blind if they're Photon, Haywire if they're EMP.
Quote from: Narric of 4th Sphere on September 05, 2012, 04:30:08 PM
Why not make Carbines work similarly to Combi-weapons? Why try invent our own rules when esisting ones can be reconfigured?
Considering the ability, I fthink we should keep the single shot (one use per game) in place, so non-tau players won't complain.
Going down this road, I think Carbines should then become Assault 2, no pinning, whilst the lunched Grenade's effect reflects what they are equipped with. So Blind if they're Photon, Haywire if they're EMP.
So make the grenade part a 1 shot affair? OR allow those with Carbines to 'throw' a grenade 12"?
I think Carbines being able to throw grenades 12" sounds good.
That said, how that applies to Photon grenades may depend on the wording of how Defensive Grenades work when 'thrown'.
Looking at the rulels for Def Grenades, they have no rules for when they are thrown, save for disallowing bonus attacks for charging.
We could remake Photon Grenades also. Giving them two sets of abilties. One for standard use, the other specifically for Carbine launcher use.
Defensive grenades do give a boost vs enemy shooting - if you're within 8" of the firer, you get Stealth. I'm thinking that you could boost that to 12" if the entire unit (read: Pathfinders) have Carbines.
Quote from: Wargamer on September 06, 2012, 06:24:24 PM
Defensive grenades do give a boost vs enemy shooting - if you're within 8" of the firer, you get Stealth. I'm thinking that you could boost that to 12" if the entire unit (read: Pathfinders) have Carbines.
That would have to be quite expensive. You can fit a LOT of units in that 12" bubble after all. hell, you can fit quite a lot in the 8" bubble
Not too mention its probably 8"/12" around each model equipped, and taking advantage ot a dispursed unit, thats a bubble of between 17"-40" side to side, depending on model placement (assuming a single model, to a full squad of 8 Pathfinders)
And Wargamer, I interpreted what you said, as whether or not the Grenade had a Ranged profile, similar to a Frag Grenade. Hence the disconnect.
By the sounds of all this. Pathfinders may have to take a small Price up. But considering they may go down in other ways, perhapsit wouldn't be as steep...
Howabout this:
Photon Grenade:
Weapon | Range | Str | AP | Type |
Photon Grenade | 6" | - | - | Assault 1, Defensive Grenade, Disorienting |
Disorienting: A unit hit with this grenade is Blinded and looses any Cover Save, no matter the source on a 4+, if a model has Acute Senses or Hatred, this is on a 2+.
Pulse Carbines: A model with a Pulse Carbine counts as carrying Photon & EMP grenades, and may "throw" them an additional 6" instead of its normal shooting attack.
Quote from: Charistoph on September 06, 2012, 08:20:46 PM
Howabout this:
Photon Grenade:
Weapon | Range | Str | AP | Type |
Photon Grenade | 6" | - | - | Assault 1, Defensive Grenade, Disorienting |
Disorienting: A unit hit with this grenade is Blinded and looses any Cover Save, no matter the source on a 4+, if a model has Acute Senses or Hatred, this is on a 2+.
Pulse Carbines: A model with a Pulse Carbine counts as carrying Photon & EMP grenades, and may "throw" them an additional 6" instead of its normal shooting attack.
*breathes deeply through clenched teeth*
Wow, you've missed something.
A beardy player would see this, and say that a Fire Warrior gets EMPs and Photon Grenades for free, which isn't good.
Disorienting is also a bit long winded and a bit redundant. We can already negate cover saves, thats part of what MLs do. OK, it takes our dependance on MLs down a little, but our key ML source is no longer offering the boost to BS, which is just as useful, if not more so.
Also, you've forgotten the "once per game" limit, which would mean this can't be fired around willy nilly. It makes the Tau player use tactics, which a good tau player should be anyway (and not underhanded ones, as a beardy TP would use).
Here is my alt suggestion
Photon Grenade:The Photon Grenade is a Defensive Grenade. In addition to the rules as stated in the Warhammer 40k Rulebook, it may be used in the Tau player's shooting phase with the following profile, instead of firing the models normal weapon:
Weapon | Range | Str | AP | Type |
Photon Grenade | 6" | - | - | Assault 1, Blind |
Pulse Carbines:Type: Assault 2
If a model is equipped with either EMP or Photon Grenades in addition to a Pulse Carbine, they may fire one of each, per game, with the following profile (though it may not fire both in the same shooting phase, nor as an overwatch reaction):
Weapon | Range | Str | AP | Type |
Photon Grenade | 12" | - | - | Assault 1, Blind |
EMP Grenade | 12" | - | - | Assault 1, Haywire |
Would it be worth saying that if you are firing a grenade instead of the carbine, everyone in the squad has to fire the same grenade type in the same turn. Otherwise you could just fire one at a time Blinding every unit that came near you.
Or is that the aim here?
Quote from: Narric of 4th Sphere on September 06, 2012, 08:43:00 PM
Quote from: Charistoph on September 06, 2012, 08:20:46 PM
Howabout this:
Photon Grenade:
Weapon | Range | Str | AP | Type |
Photon Grenade | 6" | - | - | Assault 1, Defensive Grenade, Disorienting |
Disorienting: A unit hit with this grenade is Blinded and looses any Cover Save, no matter the source on a 4+, if a model has Acute Senses or Hatred, this is on a 2+.
Pulse Carbines: A model with a Pulse Carbine counts as carrying Photon & EMP grenades, and may "throw" them an additional 6" instead of its normal shooting attack.
*breathes deeply through clenched teeth*
Wow, you've missed something.
A beardy player would see this, and say that a Fire Warrior gets EMPs and Photon Grenades for free, which isn't good.
Disorienting is also a bit long winded and a bit redundant. We can already negate cover saves, thats part of what MLs do. OK, it takes our dependance on MLs down a little, but our key ML source is no longer offering the boost to BS, which is just as useful, if not more so.
Also, you've forgotten the "once per game" limit, which would mean this can't be fired around willy nilly. It makes the Tau player use tactics, which a good tau player should be anyway (and not underhanded ones, as a beardy TP would use).
Here is my alt suggestion
Photon Grenade:
The Photon Grenade is a Defensive Grenade. In addition to the rules as stated in the Warhammer 40k Rulebook, it may be used in the Tau player's shooting phase with the following profile, instead of firing the models normal weapon:
Weapon | Range | Str | AP | Type |
Photon Grenade | 6" | - | - | Assault 1, Blind |
Pulse Carbines:
Type: Assault 2
If a model is equipped with either EMP or Photon Grenades in addition to a Pulse Carbine, they may fire one of each, per game, with the following profile (though it may not fire both in the same shooting phase, nor as an overwatch reaction):
Weapon | Range | Str | AP | Type |
Photon Grenade | 12" | - | - | Assault 1, Blind |
EMP Grenade | 12" | - | - | Assault 1, Haywire |
That is more balanced. I will admit, I thought Blind had to Wound in order to be effective. But why should it be just once per game? Just because Marine Combi-bolters are? At best, I could see a 1-2 turn stop-gap before firing another grenade.
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on September 06, 2012, 10:47:54 PM
Would it be worth saying that if you are firing a grenade instead of the carbine, everyone in the squad has to fire the same grenade type in the same turn. Otherwise you could just fire one at a time Blinding every unit that came near you.
Or is that the aim here?
Why should you? Though, one should point out that in most cases, firing both grenades would be pointless in many situations.
Making it once per game means that our Pathfinders (and Carbine Fire Warriors) don't go from ML source to Tank-hunters.
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on September 06, 2012, 10:47:54 PM
Would it be worth saying that if you are firing a grenade instead of the carbine, everyone in the squad has to fire the same grenade type in the same turn. Otherwise you could just fire one at a time Blinding every unit that came near you.
Or is that the aim here?
I hadn't thought of that, as I figured it went without saying.
It occurs to me though that only the EMP would benefit from massed shooting.
Thiniking about it, I'm not entirely sure how I'd word that part of the ability.
Unless you go WYSIWYG, in which case, only models physically equipped with Carbines can use the ability. Which oddly reminds me of how Tau units were delt with in DoW.
Don't forget your basic Gun Drones. This upgrade could make them seriously nasty,
Well, for a short time, anyway.
"seriously nasty" @BS 2? I know their Carbines are Twin-linked, but come on....
And they can't take Grenades anyway, so Gun Drones WON'T benefit from this.
Something else is that we have to pay extra just to be equipped with our Grenades, which ups our current FWs and PFs to a minimum of 14pts and 16pts respectively, before adjusting their cost to reflect the new carbine ability.
We'd be paying a similar price for a marine in not too long.
You realise, I trust, that giving Carbines the Haywire rule, even if it only has a 12" range, makes Firewarriors / Pathfinders one of the greatest tank-hunters in the game, right?
Consider:
12 Firewarriors with Carbines - 120pts.
Devilfish - about 60-70pts.
The unit can inflict an average of 5 Glancings + 1 Penetrating Hit in a single volley. The Devilfish gives them the speed required to get into a firing position turn 1. For 190pts you have a unit that will insta-gib a Land Raider without even trying, and any casualties that pile up can easily be compensated for by throwing some Markerlights into the mix.
Haywire is a hugely powerful rule. It should not be thrown around flippantly.
Nor do I like 1-shot Carbine abilities: it's a lot of book-keeping "Oh, only two of the models in the squad have used their 1-shots, and they're conveniently the two you killed last turn so I can carry on nuking your entire motor pool!"
Let a model with a Carbine increase the range of any grenades they use to 12". Less paperwork, less broken crap, but still a potentially nice power boost (even a single EMP grenade in the right place will ruin someone's day).
""Oh, only two of the models in the squad have used their 1-shots, and they're conveniently the two you killed last turn so I can carry on nuking your entire motor pool!""
This is why I was suggesting that the whole squad had to fire grenades at the same time.
So at BS3 from Pathfinders that 4 hits which should amount to one dead tank. Of course you might get 6 hits, or only 2. But the point is you can only do it once.
Still one hell of an alpha strike ability... and for dirt cheap comparatively speaking. You could quite easily produce a Tau army with only a few dedicated tank-hunters and wipe the rest of the motor pool via improvised alpha-strikers.
Even as a one-use-only attack, the fact that you're effectively assured to overkill the vehicle you shoot with it unless the dice betray you incredibly horribly sounds like way too much.
Aside from being overpowered in its own right, it effectively turns a unit of Pathfinders into a high-mobility Priority 1 Target that an opposing player is either forced to expend their army's firepower neutralizing, or suffer their best vehicle getting nuked the second it gets too close to them. Even if you never fire off a shot with them, they're a
A 160-170 point unit has absolutely NO business exerting that degree of influence and control over a battlefield. Even if it were 300 points, I still don't think it would.
Wargamer & Sotek, please read my suggestion again.
I do not give Carbines the Haywire SR, only EMP Grenades, which are a 3pt per model upgrade anyway. So no, its won't be a 190pt unit, it would be a 226pt unit (12 Strong). At cheapest, your FW squad will be very undermanned so would be less effective.
And currently I'm assuming the Tau player has the sense to realise its the entire squad or not at all. I just can't figure out how to write that as part of the rule. (Thank you Jayne for being on my side on this, I hope)
I don't want rules to be thrown around willy nilly either, hence why I strongly recommend the once-per-game limitation.
On the subject of opponent priority targets. Anything thats trying to take out your Tau, isn't targetig something else, like your Railhead, or some other uber Tau unit.
The thing you are clearly oblivious to, Narric, is this allows the Tau to essentially ban vehicles from the tabletop. You will see a lot of Tau armies built as follows:
Pathfinders and/or Firewarriors with insta-gib tankhunter weapons.
1-2 Railheads and/or Broadside units.
1-2 Skyrays for Anti-air capability.
Maybe some Battlesuits with Fusion Blasters and Deep Strike.
There is just no way to counter that. You are going to have your entire motor pool nuked by turn 2. Moreover, the issue lies with the fact that the 'secondary' anti-tank elements - the Firewarriors / Pathfinders, are arguably better than your dedicated tank hunters. That should not be the case; the whole point of Railheads and Broadsides is to pulp any vehicle in line of sight. Under your concept, they'll just be there to draw fire from the Pathfinders.
Quote from: Wargamer on September 07, 2012, 02:49:21 PM
You realise, I trust, that giving Carbines the Haywire rule, even if it only has a 12" range, makes Firewarriors / Pathfinders one of the greatest tank-hunters in the game, right?
Consider:
12 Firewarriors with Carbines - 120pts.
Devilfish - about 60-70pts.
The unit can inflict an average of 5 Glancings + 1 Penetrating Hit in a single volley. The Devilfish gives them the speed required to get into a firing position turn 1. For 190pts you have a unit that will insta-gib a Land Raider without even trying, and any casualties that pile up can easily be compensated for by throwing some Markerlights into the mix.
Haywire is a hugely powerful rule. It should not be thrown around flippantly.
Nor do I like 1-shot Carbine abilities: it's a lot of book-keeping "Oh, only two of the models in the squad have used their 1-shots, and they're conveniently the two you killed last turn so I can carry on nuking your entire motor pool!"
Let a model with a Carbine increase the range of any grenades they use to 12". Less paperwork, less broken crap, but still a potentially nice power boost (even a single EMP grenade in the right place will ruin someone's day).
Sorry to bubble burst, but if it's counting as grenades then only 1 model can use the ability per turn. Otherwise it's going to need to cost more than 2pts/model. Haywire for Wyches is base to base contact or a model at 8" range for that price, and entire unit having them at 12" range is absurd for the same cost. Hell, it takes 260pts for Dark Eldar to get just 4 Haywire shots at 18", though that is on jump infantry.
Narric's idea was for the entire unit to make a once-per-game shooting attack using their grenades, which could mean an entire unit firing 12 Haywire grenades.
My idea is to allow 'throwing' grenades up to 12", which is far more balanced because, as you say, it's one model per unit.
Quote from: Narric of 4th Sphere on September 07, 2012, 03:38:04 PM
Wargamer & Sotek, please read my suggestion again.
I do not give Carbines the Haywire SR, only EMP Grenades, which are a 3pt per model upgrade anyway. So no, its won't be a 190pt unit, it would be a 226pt unit (12 Strong).
This is still markedly less than, say, a fully kitted out unit of Sternguard with meltaguns/combi-meltas and a Rhino, or any of the 5th-edition deathstars you care to name that rolled around smashing vehicles at whim. And yet, potentially/arguably still more effective...
Quote
On the subject of opponent priority targets. Anything thats trying to take out your Tau, isn't targetig something else, like your Railhead, or some other uber Tau unit.
This is exactly my point. By taking that unit, you force me to either ignore your Railheads and get blown apart, or ignore your ultra-inexpensive Pathfinders and get blown apart while being unable to risk moving any of my vehicles within their kill bubble.
This is a bad thing. It artificially forces me into a situation where as your opponent, I can't make any good choices and have to spend the entire game reacting to you... because of -one- inexpensive unit.
The only counter I can think of is throwing a sacrificial box at you and hoping you're stupid enough to waste that kind of firepower blowing up a transport or something. And any counter that involves throwing away a unit while also betting on your opponent's incompetence is a bad counter.
Ok, how about a slight alteration. Only the Shas'ui can take the EMP launcher option, but it can be used every turn at the players discretion, instead of using the carbine?
One single EMP grenade up to 12" away.
The whole squad can fire photons though, to cause a single enemy unit to become Blind.
Better?
That sounds much more reasonable.
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on September 07, 2012, 05:30:00 PM
Ok, how about a slight alteration. Only the Shas'ui can take the EMP launcher option, but it can be used every turn at the players discretion, instead of using the carbine?
One single EMP grenade up to 12" away.
The whole squad can fire photons though, to cause a single enemy unit to become Blind.
Better?
Seeing as my idea is admitantly inbalanced (I conceed to you Wargamer), this does sound good.
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on September 07, 2012, 05:30:00 PM
Ok, how about a slight alteration. Only the Shas'ui can take the EMP launcher option, but it can be used every turn at the players discretion, instead of using the carbine?
One single EMP grenade up to 12" away.
The whole squad can fire photons though, to cause a single enemy unit to become Blind.
Better?
Much better.
Also, given the latest FAQ, Disruption Pods need a price hike. 5pts for Shrouded is completely bloody absurd.
Sorry I'm back tracking a little, but there's a point I need to get across first, and I've been away from the site for a while.
Quote from: Narric of 4th Sphere on September 07, 2012, 04:38:39 AM
"seriously nasty" @BS 2? I know their Carbines are Twin-linked, but come on....
And they can't take Grenades anyway, so Gun Drones WON'T benefit from this.
TL BS 2 usually is better than flat BS 3. And this is for a Fandex, so we can give them grenades if we so choose.
Quote from: Narric of 4th Sphere on September 07, 2012, 04:38:39 AMSomething else is that we have to pay extra just to be equipped with our Grenades, which ups our current FWs and PFs to a minimum of 14pts and 16pts respectively, before adjusting their cost to reflect the new carbine ability.
We'd be paying a similar price for a marine in not too long.
Last version of the Fandex I have (v450) have the Defensive (Photon) grenades as part of the standard kit for both Fire Warriors and Pathfinders, with EMPs being just a 2 point upgrade. I don't know how much changed with the latest version, nor how much the next one will, but I think we can all agree that Defensive Grenades will be as much standard kit for both in the next official codex as pulse weaponry is.
So be aware that your pricing may be off.
Quote from: Warmaster Russ on September 07, 2012, 06:34:28 PM
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on September 07, 2012, 05:30:00 PM
Ok, how about a slight alteration. Only the Shas'ui can take the EMP launcher option, but it can be used every turn at the players discretion, instead of using the carbine?
One single EMP grenade up to 12" away.
The whole squad can fire photons though, to cause a single enemy unit to become Blind.
Better?
Much better.
Also, given the latest FAQ, Disruption Pods need a price hike. 5pts for Shrouded is completely bloody absurd.
Considering the base price of the current hull? The above referenced version shows the DFish at a Chimera's cost, with the D-Pod (with outdated rules) being at 15 points.
Admittedly, it could be 30 on top of the current price, and people would still consider it auto-include.
I don't see why providing the carbine with blind instead of pinning is such a huge problem, when you consider the massive buff that pulse rifles received. A lot of players don't even see them as a choice (even for taking drones with the unit)... which just seems silly to me. 18 inches, with a blind rule, even on drones seems like a fair trade for losing that 30 inch, or 15 inch rapid fire.