Ok, I have played a game against them now and my first impressions are a little mixed.
New stuff that I played against:
Grav Weapons
Devastator Centurions
Stalker
Hunter
So, Devastators. I really don't like these. From a fluff point of view they are just a giant ass pull for no good reason. Points wise. . .not horrific I suppose. These particular ones had Grav Cannons and Grav Amp and the Hurricane Bolters. Now, Grav Weapons, I HATE them. Wounding on Sv, AP AND Concussive. They are rediculous, and the re-roll to wound from the Amp is worse. They are massivly unbalanced and unless you run at them with no real armour, you are borked.
If they were AP- I would probably be fine with them, but they aren't. They are stupidly powerful and render whole sections of armies useless. The Centurions themselves. . .Im just not sold on. Maybe I would be less irritated if they weren't just Hazard Suits with the Jet Packs removed. So far, short of bombarding them with loads of plasma I can't see a reasonable way of efficiently dispatching them. They can soak up small arms, T5 makes them pretty resistant to Missile Launchers and Battlecannons and similar.
Stalker:
Well, not a terrible unit, its at least sensible. The guns suffer if you try and split fire and you cant fire at ground targets without snapshots. The armour is ok and the cost is good. Against flyers it has the potential to be devastating but I can't help but think they gave it twinlinked just so they had something to take away for a penalty for split firing.
Hunter:
Just. . .I hate this thing. The vehicle itself isn't bad, its the same as the stalker, but that weapon? Fuck no. Armourbane, AP2 and it CANNOT miss. If it misses, the missile chases you around UNTIL it hits you. Unless you leave airspace you WILL be hit by it, and in the rear armour to boot. Now, if you fire it at a ground based tank, you will probably miss, but thats ok, because it is MORE accurate if you miss the first time. AND there is no way to avoid that missile, because tanks can't leave the table. You just have to hope you can find good cover.
Anyone else had any interesting game with these new things? Any thought/opinions on these or the rest of the codex?
The Hunter is terrible, you dont get a Savant Lock counter against ground targets, only flying monsters and flyers.
The Stalker is good value but it is in a very stacked slot and Im not seeing many flyers these days anyway, well worth it if people in your area use a lot but by no means broken.
Devi Centurians are amazing but not because of Grav Weps, the Grav Weapons on them are way too short ranged to make them any kind of serious threat add that to the fact that Devi Centurians are slow, they should very rarely get to engage a high priority target with those Grav weps. They will just get killed by Riptides, Railgun Broadsides, Ravagers, Wraithknights, Marine Lascannons etc. I think this kit out will come to dominate;
6 Devi Centurians; Twin Linked Lascannons, Missile Launchers, Omniscope.
You make the army Imperial Fists and this squad is getting 6 twin linked Lascannons and 6 Missile Launcher shots that are Tank Hunters, have Night Fighting and the Sarg can split fire. Say goodbye to any Wraithknights, Riptides, Monsters, Broadsides, any Tanks etc.
Im liking the look of this list;
Imperial Fists - 1850
Libby
5 Tacs - Heavy Bolter
5 Tacs - Heavy Bolter
5 Tacs - Heavy Bolter
5 Tacs - Heavy Bolter
6 Centurians - Las/Missiles/Omni
6 Centurians - Las/Missiles/Omni
3 Centurians - Las/Missiles/Omni
Defense Line.
I cant see many armies that can stand up to 15 Twin Linked Tank Hunting Lascannons and 15 Tank Hunting Missiles every turn, especially when they are on such durable bodies made even more so by that defense line.
Or you could be really mean and use a skyshield for 3+ cover on those centurians, you could drop the big squads to 5 guys each then you could also get in two outflanking camo cloaked scout squads to help with scoring and upp the libby to lvl2.
No Savant Lock against ground targets eh? Cheating goit. My Barracuda should still be alive then.
I don't see many people using grav weaponry (with the exception of White Scars biker lists) simply because they're a short ranged salvo weapon which cost as much as a plasma weapon and, well, plasma goes more in more situations I reckon, it's worth the 1/18 chance of dying.
Might see them on centurions, but they get expensive real fast.
Argulon Veq, one word: Doomscythes. They'll just go LOL at your 1000+ points of models with neither skyfire nor an invuln, then ID you to death with impunity.
If you go second, then Vindicators will be an issue too. Nob Bikers will hurt, (since they'll still get their 4+ cover, and feel no pain, and have 2 wounds each,) and that's just a few armies off the top of my head.
Not really, Doomscythes are shot down pretty handily by that many twin linked lascannons, you wont actually get all that many with the line and then thanks to the Skyshield your getting a 3+ cover against it anyway.
Vindicators should never be able to get within range and again, on a Skyshield your getting 3+ cover and Nob Bikers will take lots of damage but should actually really struggle to assault models on top of a Skyshield as to get close enough to get within charge range often means you cant actually see the models on top to be able to actually charge them.
Doomscythes would work really well against them if you only took a Defense Line though.
Im actually thinking allying 2x5 Centurians with 3x5 HB Tacs and a Libby with a Mantle Bike Seer, 2x3 Bikes [so you have fast scoring and a fast contester] and a Wraithknight [for more high strength shots and some anti combat]. Then obviously having the Cents on the Skyshield with the Tacs, Wraithknight behind it, Bike in Reserve and the Mantle Seer giving the Cents re rolls to hit with their missiles.
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on September 08, 2013, 07:36:06 PM
Grav Weapons, I HATE them. Wounding on Sv, AP AND Concussive. They are rediculous, and the re-roll to wound from the Amp is worse. They are massivly unbalanced and unless you run at them with no real armour, you are borked.
If they were AP- I would probably be fine with them, but they aren't. They are stupidly powerful and render whole sections of armies useless.
I agree. I was fine with the idea of the grav weaponry, but then I read the AP2, absurd number of shots, and graviton ability. Were it not for their "short range" I'd simply wonder why even include antiques like lascannons at all? At least Demon players will be happy.
Obviously the Centurions are meant to be the new flavor of the month, but this is silly.
-Kur'os
It bugs me because they have been dishing out all these nice MCs lately, then NOT given Marines one and instead given them a weapon able to utterly decimate them. AND any elite troops you might have. The whole wounding on 2s/3s (against anything you are likely to be using them against) and then in the case of Centurions, re-rolling that roll is just stupid, and being Salvo 5 on Centurions is worse. 15 AP shots from a unit of 3.
The range really isn't that big of a deal because you can put them in a Landraider, or a Storm Raven, and they have the Toughness to weather the small arms fire. The best thing to kill them with is a crap ton of Plasma or MORE Centurions.
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on September 10, 2013, 11:03:35 AMThe range really isn't that big of a deal because you can put them in a Landraider, or a Storm Raven, and they have the Toughness to weather the small arms fire. The best thing to kill them with is a crap ton of Plasma or MORE Centurions.
I'm standing by what I said about centurions and grav weapons going to eventuate into being a rare sight. I already talked about why in common ta squads and even veteran squads you're unlikely to see them (because they compete with plasma) but if centurions were expensive before, then if you're going to get them a transport they're going to be abhorrent. One does not simply 'take a transport' with these fatties. We're talking landraiders and stormravens. You'll be dishing more than 500 points out to get these guys to work, and they're not going to be able to do much gainst that brood of gaunts or that squad of boys that will invariably tie them up. Sniper kroot can deal with them without much challenge, so can a squad of bloody kabalites.
Sorry, I still don't see them getting much use at all.
While I cannot really contribute to this thread myself, I do think this blog posting can be used as good fuel for dscussion:
http://h2lat40k.blogspot.co.uk/2013/09/first-impressions-6th-ed-space-marines.html
A Storm Raven carries a great deal of firepower AND a Dreadnought if you have one, and alongside the Grav stuff on the Centurions are Hurricane Bolters which are quite at home against hordes. Against Suit heavy Tau and the vast majority of MEQ Armies, there is enough AP2 Wounding on 3s to make these things worth it.
At the end of the day people started dropping broadsides because of their range issues, and they are range 36''.
I was thinking of Grav Cents in Land Raiders at first but it just eats way too many points.
Set up properly and a 36" range is plenty. My broadsides are my real money winners at the moment.
I would like it if I could get an support system for my broadsides that would allow me to deal with AV 14 tanks. If they would make something like this:
Enhanced Capacitors (20pt): A broadside equipped with enhanced capacitors changes the profile of heavy rail rifles to Heavy 1, Lance.
I am actually quite liking Legion of the Damned, they will be even better when they FAQ that vehicles can have their cover save taken away.
145PTS for 5 with a Melta and Multi Melta, a pretty accurate DS and an Invun to keep you alive against any pesky Intercepting Riptides.
Thinking this may be fun for Salamanders;
Vulkan
2x10 Tacs with Melta/Combi Melta
9 Tacs with Melta/Combi Melta
2x5 Scouts with Snipers
3 Preds with Auto/2Las
Defense Line with Comm Relay
3x5 Legion with Melta/Multi Melta
2 Attack Bikes with Multi Meltas
1750
It does make me laugh that White Scars just put Ravenwing on the shelf [mainly because I dislike Dark Angels!], your getting a way cheaper body but with better special rules and an option for grav weps [on the one platform they are decent on, a bike]. Your going to want the Khan to give them all Scout though.
Quote from: KCKitsune on September 10, 2013, 08:53:03 PM
I would like it if I could get an support system for my broadsides that would allow me to deal with AV 14 tanks. If they would make something like this:
Enhanced Capacitors (20pt): A broadside equipped with enhanced capacitors changes the profile of heavy rail rifles to Heavy 1, Lance.
I don't get why they couldn't just keep the S10 Railguns as an option.
Most likely they wanted to get rid of the insta-gibbing of Daemon Princes and other Toughness 5 units. Think about the new Centurions... with a Str 10 railgun they would be expensive targets.
I think it's more "Why take a Hammerhead?" which is weaker with Hull Points when you can take 3, Str 10 Broadsides in a single slot instead. Now, the Hammerhead is king again... In the sense that people always take the Ion Cannon or don't take them at all.
Quote from: Rarity Declis on September 12, 2013, 11:57:52 AM
I think it's more "Why take a Hammerhead?" which is weaker with Hull Points when you can take 3, Str 10 Broadsides in a single slot instead. Now, the Hammerhead is king again... In the sense that people always take the Ion Cannon or don't take them at all.
A hammerhead with all the bells and whistles costs about 16 firewarriors. Three broadsides with the fixings costs about 24 firewarriors, Also before 6th edition nerfing Tau vehicles, they were slow as hell. With the new rules on tanks our hammerheads are just as immobile.
Quote from: KCKitsune on September 12, 2013, 03:23:56 PM
Quote from: Rarity Declis on September 12, 2013, 11:57:52 AM
I think it's more "Why take a Hammerhead?" which is weaker with Hull Points when you can take 3, Str 10 Broadsides in a single slot instead. Now, the Hammerhead is king again... In the sense that people always take the Ion Cannon or don't take them at all.
A hammerhead with all the bells and whistles costs about 16 firewarriors. Three broadsides with the fixings costs about 24 firewarriors, Also before 6th edition nerfing Tau vehicles, they were slow as hell. With the new rules on tanks our hammerheads are just as immobile.
That speed thing can be said about both though. Do you know that upgrade in the 6th edition codex which allows a battle suit to become slow and purposeful? me neither.
Ahhem.... Space Marines.... *Cough* *Splutter*
Quote from: salamut2202 on September 12, 2013, 05:20:02 PMThat speed thing can be said about both though. Do you know that upgrade in the 6th edition codex which allows a battle suit to become slow and purposeful? me neither.
True enough, but it is still disappointing about how nerfed our tanks became in the new codex. I mean, why get rid of that?
Quote from: Chris on September 12, 2013, 07:52:46 PM
Ahhem.... Space Marines.... *Cough* *Splutter*
Right, yes, those....
I can't believe that they cost the same, but once more, the Space Marine book is bigger than the Tau one! They could have easily stuffed the Farsight stuff in there!
Also, I was going to buy Telion and Chronus... but not now. I know they've given a lot of love to other Chapters and that's fine, but all the Ultramarines still have the most characters! Also, Black Templars can use Whirlwinds now? Sigh.
Also, can a successor Chapter from the Imperial Fists use Kantor? Because he says Crimson Fists in his rules thing, and there's the little Crimson Fist thing so he's not quite Imperial Fist because otherwise they'd just give him that symbol.
Also, the Whirlwind is cheaper, but it's still not amazing. Do they just dislike it over there? *Cough, squadrons*
Can a Tactical Squad take a Heavy Flamer? I can see no reason why not.
Despite this, it's a very good book.
Space Marine codex is £5 more than the Tau/Eldar ones. Don't know about anywhere else though.
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on September 18, 2013, 04:02:36 PM
Space Marine codex is £5 more than the Tau/Eldar ones. Don't know about anywhere else though.
Woops, colour me embarrassed.
Quote from: Rarity Declis on September 18, 2013, 02:20:09 PM
I can't believe that they cost the same, but once more, the Space Marine book is bigger than the Tau one! They could have easily stuffed the Farsight stuff in there!
Well, they did add another codex to it and Space Marines IS their biggest seller.
Quote from: Rarity Declis on September 18, 2013, 02:20:09 PMAlso, I was going to buy Telion and Chronus... but not now. I know they've given a lot of love to other Chapters and that's fine, but all the Ultramarines still have the most characters! Also, Black Templars can use Whirlwinds now? Sigh.
And Black Templars used to have Whirlwinds in Codex: Armageddon. Not that I think they're that great, personally.
But I totally agree on the Telion and Chronos concept. The worst part is that they really are not well configured for Ultramarine Tactics, Telion would be AWESOME as Raven Guard, and Chronos incredible in a Iron Hands Detachment.
Quote from: Rarity Declis on September 18, 2013, 02:20:09 PMAlso, can a successor Chapter from the Imperial Fists use Kantor? Because he says Crimson Fists in his rules thing, and there's the little Crimson Fist thing so he's not quite Imperial Fist because otherwise they'd just give him that symbol.
The only restriction is the Tactics associated with the Character. You can have Lysander and Kantor in the same Detachment since they both use Imperial Fists Tactics, but not Kantor and Helbrecht. The symbol next to the name is more for cute fluffy things. But you will only have access to one of their Warlord extended Rules, though.
Quote from: Rarity Declis on September 18, 2013, 02:20:09 PM
Can a Tactical Squad take a Heavy Flamer? I can see no reason why not.
Other than rules, no reason. Only Sternguard can take the Heavy Flamer from the Special Weapons group.
Well, Sternguard and Legion of the Damned can take Heavy Flamers... what I think he meant was, why not Tacticals? The answer is beyond me, would have been cool, and maybe made people want to take tacticals for... something. They still strike me as the most boring part of the book... don't even know why they bothered re-doing the set since they're just as boring as they've always been.
My overall satisfaction with the book was 'meh'. Not that great, not that bad, but I still think they'll be outdone by Tau.
Yeah, Dev Centurions are good, but the models are absolute garbage, and stupid looking. Also not sold on the idea of them to be honest, Tau can get new units, they're advancing themselves, taking new steps in technology... Imperium tech is dying off, but we always find new tech somehow...
Overall the book should perform fair, but not spectacular.
I am still reading the Marine dex, and hopefully I will be able to get Eldar vs Marine codex battle pretty soon. Anyway I have mixed thoughts about the book. Besides Tau this army have a really strong anti air base. Besides having to deal with flying MCs i can see Necron Flyer list having a real hard time dealing with a tank shooting, 4 strength 7 twin linked shots and a little flyer unloading lascannon death, not to mention skyfire rocket launchers.
I can say I will be leaving my flyers at home unless they are armour 12 which can shrug off some strngth 7 shots.
I think the Chapter Tactics is what is going to give some armies trouble. My personal worries so far is:
UltraMarines
WhiteScars
Salmanders
RavenGuard
The other army tactics is good, but I think these 4 really benefit almost every unit as a whole. Not to mention throwining in Specials which only multiply the tactics even more.
For example if people decided to play RavenGuard they can litterly field a huge bulk of Marines mid field. Bikes and Assault Marines can easily assault on turn 1, if the marine player goes second. if anything going first allows you to get those multi-melta shots off, flamer weapons, and be within grav weapon range. Since a troop confer scout to transports that means scouting rhinos, which means rapid firing marines possibly on turn one.
Overall i wasn't fearing Grav guns until I noticed they are concussive. Which mean I1 Bloodthirster that goes the same time as a squad of terminators with powerfist and thunder hammers. Not only that, but grav weapons on a bike squad can spell 6 grav shots that have a threat range of 36", through in pre game scout that can be upped to 48" threat range on turn one, meaning that a ravenguard army can eat your Riptides if they go first, especially if they get prescience love via Tigarius or Dark Angel libby.
Possible combinations of Centurions with Azrael for +4 invulnerable saves comes to mind as well.
I think it is a better codex. Also i think it is a more unpredictable codex as well. The ally combinations and possibilities makes the army hard to prepare for. However at the end of the day you are still facing marines. i think they will be much better, but a marine is a marine.
I also wanted to address the Centurians. I think overall they are broadside type models, or Oblits. For spacemarines I can't really picture them as a solid assault unit. For range I think they are very expensive, but durable. I see them as a range option more than an assault option.
Looking at grav weapons and how dirt cheap bikes are I will say the two obviously go well together. i wouldn't be surprised to see grav bikes as the norm. Other than that I can see grav pistols used with thunderhammers for assaulty units as a good norm as well. I doubt the grav cannon will get much use as time goes on.
On thought is to look what unit can field more than 2 grav weapons. the possibility of endurance can easily enhance the output of grav weapons. Meaning that instead of 8 shots out of a drop pod you using 12 shots due to endurance.
I think players will have to be aware of the marine chapter tactics in the future. Other than than a marine is a marine.
The Centurions are broadsides, but better. They have a lascannon and missile launcher for the same cost as a broadside with a shield generator. Sure you have a better AP weapon, the lascannon is stronger. A SMS is good for little gibblies, but the rocket launcher is another nice vehicle killer. The Centurion is also slow and purposeful.
Quote from: KCKitsune on September 20, 2013, 04:21:24 PM
The Centurions are broadsides, but better. They have a lascannon and missile launcher for the same cost as a broadside with a shield generator. Sure you have a better AP weapon, the lascannon is stronger. A SMS is good for little gibblies, but the rocket launcher is another nice vehicle killer. The Centurion is also slow and purposeful.
I still haven't really looked at their load out yet. However thinking about it it would be rather hard to get rid of them. I just see them better taken as allies over being in a space marine type army.
Thinking about it more my Tau commander that gives deny cover and tank hunter would be rather good with those guys. Oh almost forgot about twin linked. I might drop my sides and take some marine allies with my Tau.
Strange question, and a little off topic. Could someone send me the base loadout and the options for Centurians? Need it for a little project.
Tough, expensive, plenty of firepower, not on a bike.
So, rarely seen so far. When I do see them they actually die pretty quickly weather it be to overcharged ion weaponry, serpent shields, grav guns or weight of fire.
Quote from: salamut2202 on October 09, 2013, 11:48:07 PM
Tough, expensive, plenty of firepower, not on a bike.
So, rarely seen so far. When I do see them they actually die pretty quickly weather it be to overcharged ion weaponry, serpent shields, grav guns or weight of fire.
This with a +1, most over-rated unit in the book IMHO. Everyone knows how many points they are, and knows that when they're dead, you've taken a considerable chunk out of your opponent, and he's against the ropes.
Three Centurions in a Storm Raven become a "I don't like you. Go! Away!" button to Space Marines. Throw them at something and watch that something die. (Grav-Cannons with Grav Amps do bad things to tanks and monstrous creatures)
You have to load out your battlesuits (if you're Tau) with Early Warning Override just to have a shot at killing them before they rape whatever unit they have targeted with destruction. Any other army will lose whatever they are targeting. Also the Storm Raven is a really nasty unit for raping another target. They fly in and use their four "super duper whamo-dyne" missiles to kill a Crisis team or tank.
Three centurions with grav weaponry and amps in Storm Ravens is also a small army's worth of points, which will be borderline useless if their tin can is shot down.
Quote from: Lord Sotek on October 10, 2013, 08:32:54 PM
Three centurions with grav weaponry and amps in Storm Ravens is also a small army's worth of points, which will be borderline useless if their tin can is shot down.
Which with Chaos, Tau and Eldar blowing things out of the sky cheaper than your mother, it's that much of an stretch. :P
Quote from: salamut2202 on October 11, 2013, 01:31:11 AM
Quote from: Lord Sotek on October 10, 2013, 08:32:54 PM
Three centurions with grav weaponry and amps in Storm Ravens is also a small army's worth of points, which will be borderline useless if their tin can is shot down.
Which with Chaos, Tau and Eldar blowing things out of the sky cheaper than your mother, it's that much of an stretch. :P
Chaos' AA is more expensive than most others, I think. They have 3 options, the HellDrake (which would largely have to give up its Flamer to be really effective), Havoks (and what a price THAT is), and the ADL.
Quote from: Charistoph on October 11, 2013, 04:31:45 PM
Quote from: salamut2202 on October 11, 2013, 01:31:11 AM
Quote from: Lord Sotek on October 10, 2013, 08:32:54 PM
Three centurions with grav weaponry and amps in Storm Ravens is also a small army's worth of points, which will be borderline useless if their tin can is shot down.
Which with Chaos, Tau and Eldar blowing things out of the sky cheaper than your mother, it's that much of an stretch. :P
Chaos' AA is more expensive than most others, I think. They have 3 options, the HellDrake (which would largely have to give up its Flamer to be really effective), Havoks (and what a price THAT is), and the ADL.
The Heldrake could still take out a Storm Talon with its Flamer, and at a distance too. The Autocannon just has more shots slighty higher Strength. There is also the Heldrakes ability to Vector Strike a Centurian flyer transport, which could leave the Centurians out in the open for a follow-up Heldrake assault.
AA-Havoks are slighty cheaper than a Heldrake, and can be used against more than just flyers. Autocannons are decent all-rounder weapons, whilst the ML is best for AA.
Not sure what you mean by the ADL :P
Simply put, though Chaos may be more expensive, it could probably handle twice as much as a dedicated Anti-air unit, making it a much better choice.
Quote from: Narric on October 11, 2013, 05:50:55 PM
Not sure what you mean by the ADL :P
Aegis Defence Line, with the Quad Gun or Icarus Lascannon.
Ahh
The ADL is only slightly cheaper than a AA Havok squad, and isn't as versatile. It can't launch an assault on a weakened enemy squad itself, it actually hinders the occupying squad from ding so themselves due to being terrain and would logically do so, so don't say you could just ignore that fact. Its granted Cover Save isn't that useful considering Power Armour, and the firepower your opponent would have to throw at the squad to force the use of said cover save.
You're also only looking at those two pages, because the Bastion for the same stuff is 25pts more, gives you a larger amount of protection, and has four Heavy Bolters for other things.
The ADL is litterally the "Poor Mans' Option" due to it being a sugnificantly smaller kit, and lower pricetag.
Lastly, if you're relying on something from the core rulebook such as a fortification to provide Anti-Aircraft support with a 6th edition codex, you're using your army wrong.
Quote from: Narric on October 11, 2013, 05:50:55 PM
The Heldrake could still take out a Storm Talon with its Flamer, and at a distance too. The Autocannon just has more shots slighty higher Strength. There is also the Heldrakes ability to Vector Strike a Centurian flyer transport, which could leave the Centurians out in the open for a follow-up Heldrake assault.
Um, Template weapons cannot hit a Flyer unless it is Hovering, and since Talons have little need to Hover, I don't really see how that would be a common occurrence. A BaleDrake would have to rely on others or its Vector Strike to take out a moving Flyer, by which time, a Talon could easily have a good chance to shoot it down, too.
And a Drake being deployed with its Cannon these days is almost unheard of.