February Tau Rumours

[Narric]

I don't buy the whole "Its outdated" as a reason to throw out older Codexi as examples. In fact I like them better as examples as they show a different way of approaching the game.

Though I can agree with DKs post, the fact he returns with the same cost as present FWs, is perhaps not the best result. With current gear, and some extras (Like adding a Pistol and Photon Nages as standard) I'd be fine paying 13pts per model for my Fire Warriors.

Another thing to consider is that BS4 doesn't just help Pulse Rifles, it also makes Markerlights even more effective, regardless of any changes that may/may not occur to their working. While I want my FWs to become more effective at range and so make them BS4, I can't help but think that BS4 Pathfinders would essentially mean that the enemy would have even less chance. This is where I would start to side with sticking to BS3 FWs & PFs.

In this I'd say that BS4 shouldn't be a standard boon, and instead be an upgrade with an appropriate cost. If we use our Fan-revamped Fire Warriors, with Pulse Pistol and Photon Nades standard, as I said I'd be fine paying 13pts per model. To then make them BS4, I'd again be comfortable paying an additional 5-7pts per model. This would make them 18-20pts per model. Yes, our guns are now able to sit back and rain death with no care for Combat, but now you have a smaller sized force, as you don't have as many points to spend elsewhere.

I'd also expect that such an upgrade, should be tied to a HQ slot in some way. Either a Veteran Commander, or a new Named Character. Provided other named characters can offered alternate ways of improving the army, such as being able to field a full Kroot/Alien Allies List.

[InsaneTD]

You're also ignoring power creep/points decreasing. Basic troops have gotten cheaper on average by about three points a piece in most codexes. GW is just as likely to drop the price of FW by two points, and give them photons and bs4 with that as they are to leave them the same price with said upgrades.


Also if my memory serves, YOU WHINGING ABOUT A 25 POINT RUMOURED UPGRADE THAT HAS A HQ REQUIREMENT. This upgrade will be something like 2.09 points a model assuming a full squad and ignoring the fact the HQ needed will probably be an ethereal if it is true, like it ALREADY is.

Until we know WHO is writting the codex, there isn't much much point assuming FWs will be bs 4 or get it as an upgrade.

[The Man They Call Jayne]

I thought Crudface was doing it?

[InsaneTD]

Is that rumoured or confirmed? If so, probably end up cheaper with bs 4 and extra equipment.

[The Man They Call Jayne]

It's just the last thing I heard.

[Scout Sergeant Mkoll]

You're also ignoring power creep/points decreasing. Basic troops have gotten cheaper on average by about three points a piece in most codexes. GW is just as likely to drop the price of FW by two points, and give them photons and bs4 with that as they are to leave them the same price with said upgrades.

No I'm not, I pointed out point decreases to Jayne earlier, and if Firewarriors are unchanged I have no issue with them coming down in price [/i]slightly[/i], but if they get made BS4 they need to cost considerably more, or the upgrade which grants it needs to cost a bomb.

Also if my memory serves, YOU WHINGING ABOUT A 25 POINT RUMOURED UPGRADE THAT HAS A HQ REQUIREMENT. This upgrade will be something like 2.09 points a model assuming a full squad and ignoring the fact the HQ needed will probably be an ethereal if it is true, like it ALREADY is.

Until we know WHO is writting the codex, there isn't much much point assuming FWs will be bs 4 or get it as an upgrade.

I am "whinging" about nothing, simply having a difference of opinion regarding how much a rumoured upgrade should cost. Frankly, 2pts/model for a full squad is not enough. To use my earlier example of the 'Nid codex in 4th, +1BS cost half that for Termagants (which are much less survivable than Fire Warriors) but the gun prices then doubled and not one of those weapons had a range about 18" or a strength value above 4. So with that in mind, even considering the general point decrease, +2pts/model for BS4 Tau is absurd.

Also, this thread is for responses to Tau rumours from BOTH sides of the fence, BS4 is rumoured, myself and others are simply responding to that.

As for the requirement of a HQ, big woop. Just take a basic [insert correct HQ here] and hide him in a unit. Nowhere is it rumoured that taking out this HQ removes the +1BS, so even if it is an Ethereal losing him won't cost you the upgrade. Oh, and if it's on an Ethereal, I get the impression they'll be laughably cheap to start with anyway. Or they'll get major boosts to their rules. Or both.

[The Man They Call Jayne]

Without a major re-write an ethereal will never be worth taking. I don't get the mentality of a person who designs a unit that is, fluffwise, idolised and revered by the troops, and then when he dies, they becomes only marginally sub par in CC. What is the point in a guy who has to die to work? And if thats how it has to go, let ME shoot him!

Personally I am kind of wondering if the Skyrays Markerlights might become High Intensity ones as they are vehical mounted. If they did they would actually be worth taking.

[Minrat]

As i think im not allowed to state blatant point values, here is some math where x is the current FW price.

If BS increases by 1, that is approx 16% more hits.  If the BS remains at what it is now, half the shots should hit.  You could spend the extra points from a lower BS example (current codex) on more FWs resulting in more shots and slightly better combat capabilities (more fighters, more damage).

As such, increasing the points cost in a new codex does make sense, but not by as much of a margin as suggested by previous posters.  If it increases hits by 16%, then the points should be increased by 16% resulting in the new price of 1.16*x  (where x is the current FW price).

You then have the choice of rounding up or down, depending on whether you see the loss of extra close combat models as significant in the calculation.  Either way, by the end of it you are looking at 11-12 points per model.

If something doesn't make sense-please advise....i can be bad at explaining things sometimes.

[Narric]

Minrat, its not so much the upgrade itself that is the issue, but what that single upgrade would mean.

Remember, it may be +16% more hits, but from those hits you're going to be wounding roughly 70% of the time, and then saves would be failed 40% (MEQ)/50% (GEq) or be out-right negated.

Then you also have to consider what BS4 means to Markerlights. Thats 16% more ML hits. One more ML can mean the destruction of an opposing unit, even in this edition. Now consider that MLs are possibly becoming more simplified. That 16% more hits is even more potent.

Going further, this would mean Battlesuits would be BS4 as standard. They can tot around Plasma Rifles, Missile Pods and Fusion Blasters. Suddenly Tau have no fear of any sort of vehicle, bar possibly a Flyer. in that vain, Broadsides become a far more devastating choice, being able to roll with Twin-linked BS4 Railguns.

In all fairness to mkoll, he does have grounds for concern on how OP BS4 could make tau, if taken to the logical conclusions I have. However, it does assume the codex remains fairly similar to what we have now.

[knightperson]

I was gonna stay out of this and let it die down, but that's clearly not happening! So...

You all seem to be missing one reason fire warriors and their mighty pulse rifles are not OP: it's all they can have in the squad. Other than a markerlight or EMP grenades, both of which are of dubious use, fire warriors can't take anything else. No flamers, no autocannon-equivalent weapons, no melta guns, no rocket launchers, nothing. Since objective missions have required troops to take objectives, troops need to have a chance at doing everything, and the fire warrior can't.  When their codex was written you could score with crisis suits that can do anything, but that is no longer the case. This is why I originally argued for some kind of buff to the pulse rifle, even if it's just Tank Hunter. I'd rather have Rending, but that would be broken without an impressive points increase.

Also, while the ability to move and fire rapid-fire weapons at full range is an impressive boost from 6th Edition, Only a hammer and anvil deployment would allow them to exploit such an advantage much. Theoretically, a fire warrior team could continue moving backwards and firing, constantly whittling down any opponent, but on most battlefields they could retreat once before falling off the board! And a straight Space Marine gunline is likely going to get clobbered by more than just the Tau anyway.

[Minrat]

@ narric.

The same +16% of points cost would occur to everything else with higher BS as well.

In terms of markerlights, there will probably already be a point change if they are easier to hit that will affect all things the are a wargear upgrade or things that have markerlights as default.

After this, any further BS added would follow the same calculation as previously due to the fact that at a lower BS there would be a lower points cost, and due to that you can get more shots off by buying more fighters.

[The Man They Call Jayne]

"Going further, this would mean Battlesuits would be BS4 as standard. They can tot around Plasma Rifles, Missile Pods and Fusion Blasters. Suddenly Tau have no fear of any sort of vehicle, bar possibly a Flyer. in that vain, Broadsides become a far more devastating choice, being able to roll with Twin-linked BS4 Railguns."

Battlesuits SHOULD be BS4 as standard. All that targetting technology in there and it has no effect on Aiming ability? Rubbish. Yes BS4 is mean with some weapons, but it is also very expensive for what it is and how fragile it is if you don't spend silly points on upgrades to keep you alive.

[Mabbz]

Isn't this meant to be a rumours thread? Can a moderator move all these "OP fire warrior" posts to a new topic in the relevant board?

[Osiris]

i want them to release the new Tau codex/models so we can get onto the next set of rumours. speaking of which, i need to brush up on my Tau fluff...I am sorely lacking in that department.

In regards to what they may possibly release, I think that a monstrous Kroot critter is more likely than a variation of the 'Dreadknight' for the Tau, if anything, they may get a different battlesuit, or even another type of drone. that is just my opinion though.

/or/ for all those who like the new flyers (if only for the models, not the rules), most likely a flyer of some sort...maybe a flying kroot monstrous creature...who can breathe flames and whatnot. i would think this is the most logical course of action GW would take with this army list.

[Charistoph]

There was A rumor of Kroot getting an organic transport (think Squiggoth, but smaller).  It would be interesting to see if/how that turns out.