New Eldar Review

[Chicop76]

Had a gander at the Runes of Battle (i think?) The ones that are either a blessing or a curse, and some of them are really nasty.

Harlequins seem to be unpleasant again though with Veil of Tears as a power now. being invisible untill almost charge range is bad.

How so. Having a 2+ cover was bad due to a ton of cover denial out there. If you was fighting only the new codexes Dark Angles really do not have anything to deal with your 2+ cover besides turn it into 3+ cover. I used harlequins last edition and veils was hard to contend with. If you want shrounding slap a spirtseer on them and they now have a cover save again. The fact the other player have to forfiet shooting to bother tyring to hit them is big. If done right you can assault without getting shoot upon, unless the other player rolls good, that's why you have that spiritseer tag along.

[Carrelio]

As for daemons and tau. Daemons were VERY broken before the new book thanks to that WD update. Since the new book they have really fallen off, 60 flesh hounds looked viable for a time but even they cant take the massive weight of fire armies can get out there. They are good, but in now way broken.

Tau on the other hand can blow armies away in a few turns flat, even other competative armies. How else do you deal with tau besides coming at them? you cant deepstrike on them because almost the whole army will have intercept and very few armies can out-shoot them. Im actually playing a long game against them and operating outside their 36'' sweet zone but a lot of armies cant do that. If people are having riptides as their main competative unit, thats the problem. They dont put out anywhere near enough firepower and are only really good for soaking power and intercepting units with a large blast.

What really make tau are missile broadsides and markerlights. Ive yet to see a competative tau list that doesnt run at least 6 missile broadsides with 6 missile drones in each unit. Your looking at each unit putting out 20+ S7 hits with markerlight support and thats without the extra S5 hits it should get [another 10]. Your looking at every missile side unit killing 7+ marines. Add to that their durability and you have a brutal army.

Tau are as far away from a tricky tactical army as you can get if you want to play them as a competative list as they can simply line up and win the game against most other lists when you bring the right units.

Well, clearly it's not worth arguing because we are in two very different metas.  Wish I lived where you do.

[Chicop76]

I been shying away from missile sides. The problem I seen is standard fire take out the drones and than ap 2 death rains upon them. It's to a point my riptides are ignored and my sides get lit up. Honestly for the most part usually pathfinders and the missile drones die. Than broadside focus follwed by the riptides. However I tend to be very aggresive with my tides which draws attention from my sides.

I played against Tau and play Tau and the major 2 weakness of the army is overloading multiple assaults on the units and if you out 36" Tau can be out shot by Necrons. Gosh that pissed me off. Sadly I mentioned it before with Tau vs Darkeldar. Staying outside most of the armies 36" range is a major weakness armies like guard can exploit. This weakness shows in 2/3 of the missions that are available. I played in my first 6th tournament I came in 3rd, but the problem I had vs greyknights and necrons was both players exploited my 36" range on the bulk of my army and stayed out of the 15" triple tap range. The greyknight player stayed 1" out of my triple tap all game long.

The most important point is objectives was where the 36" range really hurted. Both players took advantage of mobility and made sure they didn't get hit by my full army. Both games was really hard fought. One should had been a tie, I didn't read a condition I could had easily met, and the other one was a tie, but a ruling due to my squad dropping to leadership 7 cause me ethereal decline, but I argued his leadership gives all units 10.

Anyway I am totally revamping my Tau and using more ranged units pass 36" and more mobility.

Funny that the Ehereal powers I use the most is either triple rapid fire or run and than fire snap shots. The run and fire snap shots helped against both armies who was keeping outside of 36".

With daemons I seen either hound rush or flying circus just dominate. Even Tau have problems with both list. I almost forgot the plague drones with beast of nurgle crap with endurance and +3 invulnerable saves on either two.

In my area it's necrons, greyknights, or daemons that really dominates hard. For example last tournament had 4 daemon players in it. This one had I think 5 greyknight and 5 necrons with one of everything else.

The problem with the tournament was all the players was from the other part of town. I expected grey knights and crons, but not that many. In 2 weeks I will go to the other part of town and play down their with my revised list. Intersting enough my Tau Daemons did pretty well. What cost me the game with necrons was if I didn't roll a one due to desperate allies I would had the relic and won or at least possibly come in second since I would had gotten points for the relic tie andhe would had lost points.

I think eldar is better than Dark Angels and slightly worst than Chaos Space Marines.

[The Man They Call Jayne]

I mean Harlequin have Stealth and Shrouded but can ALSO cast Veil of Tears as a power to make you take a spotting test. If you are more than 14" away they would be invisible until just outside charge range.

[Chicop76]

I mean Harlequin have Stealth and Shrouded but can ALSO cast Veil of Tears as a power to make you take a spotting test. If you are more than 14" away they would be invisible until just outside charge range.

They already have stealth and shrounding. Have to re check. Umm that's what I said. It up to 24" 2d6x2= 24". The average range is 14". You still can get shot up, but the other player takes a risk of wasting shots shooting at them. Me I just move up 6" and hopefully fry you, well rapid fire since you should be out of flame range.

[Irisado]

With regards to guardians I think its something they needed from a game stand point. Without it they would have to drop them to a seriously low points value and then we would see hordes of them which really just doesnt fit for eldar at all.

I disagree.

All they needed was a six inch range increase to the Shuiken Catapult, and to stay at their current cost.  Storm Guardians were already solid, so they just needed grenades, and no further changes.  I play tested these alterations with friends, against a variety of different armies, and they solved all the problems with Guardians.

From a fluff stand point I think they should be BS/WS4. Every guardian in an eldar army is an eldar who has walked the path of the warrior so at some point in their lives they have been BS/WS4. They have probably spent a normal mortals lifetime as an aspect warrior. Sure they could be hundreds of years removed from doing that but they are all also psychic and ive no doubt with their advanced minds and bodies can recall their training and their bodies will quickly get used to the rigours of war again with probably only a few months training.

That's incorrect.  It is not true to say that every Guardian has walked the Path of the Warrior.  Previous Eldar codices, and the Path series novels confirm this.  In addition, even for those who have followed the path, they don't keep up the necessary levels of training to have the same level of WS/BS as an Aspect Warrior.  The background justification is, therefore, not there, and there's certainly nothing that I have seen in the new codex which changes the background in this respect.

[Chicop76]

With regards to guardians I think its something they needed from a game stand point. Without it they would have to drop them to a seriously low points value and then we would see hordes of them which really just doesnt fit for eldar at all.

I disagree.

All they needed was a six inch range increase to the Shuiken Catapult, and to stay at their current cost.  Storm Guardians were already solid, so they just needed grenades, and no further changes.  I play tested these alterations with friends, against a variety of different armies, and they solved all the problems with Guardians.

From a fluff stand point I think they should be BS/WS4. Every guardian in an eldar army is an eldar who has walked the path of the warrior so at some point in their lives they have been BS/WS4. They have probably spent a normal mortals lifetime as an aspect warrior. Sure they could be hundreds of years removed from doing that but they are all also psychic and ive no doubt with their advanced minds and bodies can recall their training and their bodies will quickly get used to the rigours of war again with probably only a few months training.

That's incorrect.  It is not true to say that every Guardian has walked the Path of the Warrior.  Previous Eldar codices, and the Path series novels confirm this.  In addition, even for those who have followed the path, they don't keep up the necessary levels of training to have the same level of WS/BS as an Aspect Warrior.  The background justification is, therefore, not there, and there's certainly nothing that I have seen in the new codex which changes the background in this respect.

I forgot to mention that guardians in the eye of terror was bs 4 or ws 4. If you look at the codex and compare it to th uthrwe strike force from eye of terror it's very simmilar due to bs 4 vypers, etc due to bs 4 guardians. Instead of here is uthrwe army. The just buffed the army in away it is already one. You can easily do Uthrwe, illaden, Ranger, Saim Han. The only one you can't do is the elite heavy army as troops. To be honest I wish they did the same with marines.

To me it makes sence to do it that way instead of buying or even trying to deal with black guardians. Just easier to make them all black.

I don't see 12" being a problem. They can move, run, shoot at average range of 21" with 24" being possible. 2nd turn shooting is very easy to do. 1st turn shooting is god if they move up.

I think eldar benefits more as never going first and letting your opponent go second. Unless vs shooting armies if you got first you just have to go through on roundd of shooting befor eyou shoot back. Going second means two rounds of getting shot at to get within shooting range.

[The Man They Call Jayne]

Thing is, this army can, with a little thought, shred troops with little effort. The sheer number of AP2 it can throw out is horrific. Add a couple of wraithknights with some warlocks restoring their wounds as they are gradually whittled down, and you have some SERIOUS problems.

That sniper character is pretty nasty aswell. He can pull a Marbo AND THEN bring his friends. Pretty cheap for what he can do.

Oh, and the wave serpent too. Cheaper and massivly more powerful and versatile. Almost immune to penetrating hits and  potential 7 S7 shots on top of its weapons. That's just evil.

[Arguleon-veq]

I was sure I read in the new codex that every guardian had been an aspect warrior, I thought it was just a little retcon but having re read it, I cant find that at all so must have been mistaken. Although I think it would be stupid of a craftworld not to sign up ex aspect warriors first. So a good number of guardians really should be ex aspect warriors and ive already covered the whole not having trained in a while thing.

What the new codex does say is that more and more eldar are walking the path of the warrior. Which again would make more former aspect warriors, I think there would be enough in guardian units to justify a majority WS/BS4.

[Irisado]

I forgot to mention that guardians in the eye of terror was bs 4 or ws 4. If you look at the codex and compare it to th uthrwe strike force from eye of terror it's very simmilar due to bs 4 vypers, etc due to bs 4 guardians. Instead of here is uthrwe army. The just buffed the army in away it is already one. You can easily do Uthrwe, illaden, Ranger, Saim Han. The only one you can't do is the elite heavy army as troops. To be honest I wish they did the same with marines.

I'm completely confused by what you're trying argue here, and what Marines have got to do with any of this  ?

The point about the BS is neither here nor there, because that whole supplement was dedicated to Ulthwé Eldar, who've had Black Guardians for years.  That concept dates back to second edition Epic Space Marine, so there's precedent for that, but only for Ulthwé.  For the Guardians of other craftworlds (outside of vehicles), there's no precedent for this at all.

To me it makes sence to do it that way instead of buying or even trying to deal with black guardians. Just easier to make them all black.

It makes no sense when Black Guardians do not exist outside of Ulthwé.

I don't see 12" being a problem. They can move, run, shoot at average range of 21" with 24" being possible. 2nd turn shooting is very easy to do. 1st turn shooting is god if they move up.

It's a problem if you take a weapon platform, because the two roles don't match very well.  This was the problem with them in the last two codices (although it wasn't so noticeable in third edition), and as much as I found ways to mitigate it, not tacking this problem was, in my view, lazy games design by GW.

Although I think it would be stupid of a craftworld not to sign up ex aspect warriors first. So a good number of guardians really should be ex aspect warriors and ive already covered the whole not having trained in a while thing.

Given that Guardians are, for the most part, not former Aspect Warriors (see the sources I mentioned previously for further details), then most Craftworlds are not going to have that luxury, so this idea that you could somehow have majority WS/BS that's the same as an Aspect Warrior just doesn't have anywhere near the kind of support from the literature that you're trying to suggest it does.

[Arguleon-veq]

I think its a lot like high elves in fantasy, even though they are just militia, the fact that they are so long lived, the fact that they are elves/eldar will make them as good as even elite warriors of other races.

As ive said, what the new codex does say is that a lot more eldar are taking the path of the warrior, which does mean more former aspect warriors to help the guardian pool. Couple that with hundreds-thousands of years of training [even if its only part time] and a race that is already very graceful, athletic, great eye sight etc I think would be enough to put them on the level of say a storm trooper who would have say an average of 20 years heavy training.

Plus you have to consider that something like WS/BS is very broad, just because they are the same BS as a space marine doesnt mean they are as good. Just that they are better than your average guardsmen. When you consider that BS3 on guard represent everything from some poorly trained regiments to some of the very best like Cadians its not a jump for guardians to be BS4 along with something like an aspect warrior as it doesnt mean they are as good, just that its near enough for game purposes.

[Chicop76]

Eye of Terror Codex the guardians and most of the vehicles was b4.

[Irisado]

I think its a lot like high elves in fantasy, even though they are just militia, the fact that they are so long lived, the fact that they are elves/eldar will make them as good as even elite warriors of other races.

As ive said, what the new codex does say is that a lot more eldar are taking the path of the warrior, which does mean more former aspect warriors to help the guardian pool. Couple that with hundreds-thousands of years of training [even if its only part time] and a race that is already very graceful, athletic, great eye sight etc I think would be enough to put them on the level of say a storm trooper who would have say an average of 20 years heavy training.

The comparison with High Elves is irrelevant in my view, because that's a completely different set of parameters that you're dealing with when you're referring to Warhammer, so let's stick to Warhammer 40,000.

What you're missing with your point about more Eldar walking the path is the preceding paragraph on page 10.  This points out that Guardian militia are drawn from the civilian population.  Eldar who walk the path are Aspect Warriors, not Guardians.

Guardians having their old WS/BS values were as good as a standard Imperial Guardsman who is a full time soldier.  That, in itself, showed just how good Eldar Guardians were.  The increase in stats is, therefore, unjustified.  There is no way that a civilian Guardian could be as well trained as an Aspect Warrior.

Plus you have to consider that something like WS/BS is very broad, just because they are the same BS as a space marine doesnt mean they are as good. Just that they are better than your average guardsmen. When you consider that BS3 on guard represent everything from some poorly trained regiments to some of the very best like Cadians its not a jump for guardians to be BS4 along with something like an aspect warrior as it doesnt mean they are as good, just that its near enough for game purposes.

If the BS is equal then, in terms of the rules, they are just as good.  That is what is crucial.  We are not playing a game which uses percentile dice where you can have a wide variety of different values, and translate background into stats more effectively, albeit still imperfectly.  Using a D6 system, and scores out of ten, is very limiting, and, for that reason, there has to be an interval of one to distinguish elite, and regular, units appropriately, and this is no longer the case.

Eye of Terror Codex the guardians and most of the vehicles was b4.

It's not relevant because that was an Ulthwé Strike Force army list, and, as I've previously mentioned, Ulthwé is not representative of Guardians on other Eldar craftworlds.

[Chicop76]

They just in my opinion just made Eldar Uthrewe for intents and purposes.

I haven't read the 6th fluff. I remember 3rd fluff and guardins was your citizens who took up arms. Like the national guard.

[BigToof]

I find the new Codex to be sort of a mixed bag.

A few things were incredibly nerfed (such as the Runes of Warding), and although there were changes, the core remains the same.

I'm just not sure (again) how useful the new models will be.

The Fighters seem just too fragile for what they can do, and the Wraithknight is huge, but can still only fire two weapons a turn and has a 3+ save...

That aside, I think we have many, many solid units, with the Farseer, Jetbikes and (oddly enough) Warp Spiders catching my eye.  Also, the Fire Prism seems finally viable due to it's triple fire option.

I'm glad that it's not an easy to use Codex.  It shouldn't be.  Eldar were always about careful builds with synergy holding everything together. I was worried about mass cheap Guardians, but thankfully there's other very nice units that fit in well.

Overall, I'm pleased and eager to see what they can do.

Best,
-BT