Second Sphere

Wargames => Warhammer 40k => Topic started by: BigToof on May 17, 2013, 12:07:24 AM

Title: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
Post by: BigToof on May 17, 2013, 12:07:24 AM
Hi All,
Sorry to bring up another one of these, but I recently had a chance to go against Tau with my Dark Eldar/Eldar list and...

OMG

Wow, they are tough.  Just SO nasty.

Everything seems to be able to shoot you to pieces and shooting at T3 models with poison is so... wasteful feeling.

Any Dark Eldar players still out there?

Love to hear how you deal with Tau.

Best,
-BT
Title: Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
Post by: Chicop76 on May 17, 2013, 02:22:49 AM
You don't lol. Tau troop weapons wounds on 3s and can pen boats or glance the heavy support. i am thinking a lot of neast and the pain troop guys.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
Post by: BigToof on May 18, 2013, 04:53:44 PM
Yeah, perhaps DE are not that great against Tau.

Just hate to have to re-do my whole list because of them, but maybe that's needed now-a-days?

Best,
-BT
Title: Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
Post by: Chicop76 on May 24, 2013, 03:20:25 PM
Quote from: BigToof on May 18, 2013, 04:53:44 PM
Yeah, perhaps DE are not that great against Tau.

Just hate to have to re-do my whole list because of them, but maybe that's needed now-a-days?

Best,
-BT

I wouldn't say so.

You can go wracks, talos and beast. That sort of DE list would be a challenge for Tau. The normal type I just don't see it.

I think a foot army might not be a bad ideal. Wracks are tougness 4 and have feel no pain. Still tau would kill them and a transport is still needed. The beast can be used effectively, but a ton of strength 7 shots can instant kill the 3 wound models.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
Post by: Arkitek on May 24, 2013, 03:47:16 PM
Webway portals are a pain in the ass for me. They're indestructible, block LOS, and shit out units close to my lines that can move and assault.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
Post by: Narric on May 24, 2013, 05:42:20 PM
Off the top of my head, the best List-style DE could throw at tau would probably by Coven heavy with Trueborn added for extra ballistic offense.

Another idea is taking Transports and deliberately letting them get gun-down in the enemy gunline. If you're lucky, it'll explode at take on some Tau, if it doesn't, its technically cover for the rest of your army.

I think anything that can throw out a decent amount of balistic firepower that can come in reliably via Deep Strike is another option.

Thats all I can say for now, as I currently don't have my DE Codex with me :(
Title: Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
Post by: Chicop76 on May 24, 2013, 07:22:35 PM
Quote from: Narric on May 24, 2013, 05:42:20 PM
Off the top of my head, the best List-style DE could throw at tau would probably by Coven heavy with Trueborn added for extra ballistic offense.

Another idea is taking Transports and deliberately letting them get gun-down in the enemy gunline. If you're lucky, it'll explode at take on some Tau, if it doesn't, its technically cover for the rest of your army.

I think anything that can throw out a decent amount of balistic firepower that can come in reliably via Deep Strike is another option.

Thats all I can say for now, as I currently don't have my DE Codex with me :(

The ds option is a good option. I think you have to take the serpent to be able to fire out the raiders out of deep strike. I know the serpent gives you full ds.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
Post by: Narric on May 24, 2013, 08:17:29 PM
I assume you're talking about the "Serpent" Special Character Dude?

Like I said, I don't have my codex, so I can't help much currently :(
Title: Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
Post by: Chicop76 on May 24, 2013, 08:28:33 PM
Quote from: Narric on May 24, 2013, 08:17:29 PM
I assume you're talking about the "Serpent" Special Character Dude?

Like I said, I don't have my codex, so I can't help much currently :(

Yes that guy. He allows you to deep strike like normal. I think without him you can't disembark if I remeber correctly.

I think deep striking would be a good ideal. You have luquidfiers to burn out fire warriors and blasters to kill suits. More I think about it the more sound the tactic seems.

If you don't tahe the serpent I think you will only be able to fire snap shots out of your vehicles and you will be stuck inside.

The serpent with 3 hameies with luquidfiers seem right. That would mean your warriors will have fnp.

You still can take raiders just put them as far away as possible with the -6" shielding.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
Post by: Narric on May 24, 2013, 08:44:15 PM
If memory serves, isn't the Serpent limited to D3 units? or am I confusing his ability with the "Lady" SC, who allows re-dploying of units?

I believe when DE first Came out, the Serpent and the Lady were the best combo to counter Ranged/gunline armies (in my personal opinion). One allows DS, the other misguides your opponents deployment. Have your Elites filled with two units of Wracks or Grotesques (for moderate toughness CC units) with one unit of Shooty Trueborn, or if you prefer, two Trueborn and one unit of Wracks/Grotesques.

Troops can obviously be whichever takes your fancy, though for Anti-gunline, I'd assume Mounted Warriors, with High output weapons like Splinter Cannon and Shredder.

Can't remember much useful from FA and HS to other suggestion for them, with the exception of taking units of those winged dudes (seriously wish I had my codex collecxtion -_-) or Helions.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
Post by: Chicop76 on May 24, 2013, 09:01:26 PM
I always forget about grotesques. With lack of strength 10 they can pretty much just plow on through the middle of the field. Also they can be on the board half easy. I have to glance through the de book.

Looking through the book I seen some options. If you take the serpent than your transports can deep strike per regular rules.

Having said that. I would say go with a pain engine or two. I want to say go with mandrakes. Mandrakes with a pain token would do well against Tau. The problem is they need a pain token which is why I said take a pain engine. You can deploy the mandrakes with a hamey which puts them out of range with their shooting attacks. If you infiltrate you can't assault. Now I remember why no one bothers with them. I think putting a hamey with them will help them a lot.

I just had a thought. Leave a tranport open and let the mandrakes and hammy ride inside. Naaaa.

The lisard guy in the hq wouldn't be a bad option as well. With toughness 5 fnp and a carbine he's not bad at all.

The lady allows you to re depoly d3 units.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
Post by: The Man They Call Jayne on May 24, 2013, 09:54:23 PM
Useful thing about DE vehicles is that they are same armour all round. Advance them sideways for a nice, fairly wide 5+ save behind them, then wait for them to crash and you can get a 4+ cover save from the wreckage.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
Post by: BigToof on May 25, 2013, 04:00:54 AM
Never thought of going all Haemonculus, but it is an interesting option...

I also want to see what the new Eldar book has to offer, as if I can get some backup, that might help out a lot.

Anyone have any early ideas for Eldar/Dark Eldar synergy?

Best,
-BT
Title: Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
Post by: Scout Sergeant Mkoll on May 25, 2013, 11:07:35 AM
Those who are advocating Deep Strike, don't. Tau can have a stupid amount of Interceptor with S7/8 guns, the Raiders would be shot down before they could do anything.

Tau are without a doubt the most absurd army at the minute. The Beastmaster/Wrack list might do a decent job if you have enough Razorwings to absorb the fire. The trouble is, the Dark Eldar codex was a balanced army in 5th Edition. With the introduction of 6th, the change in focus and the release of Dark Angels and Tau they're now quite underpowered. They're not weak, there's still armies they can beat, but Tau and Dark Angels aren't amongst those I wouldn't say unless you're a much better player or have a tonne of luck.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
Post by: Chicop76 on May 25, 2013, 02:14:13 PM
Quote from: Scout Sergeant Mkoll on May 25, 2013, 11:07:35 AM
Those who are advocating Deep Strike, don't. Tau can have a stupid amount of Interceptor with S7/8 guns, the Raiders would be shot down before they could do anything.

Tau are without a doubt the most absurd army at the minute. The Beastmaster/Wrack list might do a decent job if you have enough Razorwings to absorb the fire. The trouble is, the Dark Eldar codex was a balanced army in 5th Edition. With the introduction of 6th, the change in focus and the release of Dark Angels and Tau they're now quite underpowered. They're not weak, there's still armies they can beat, but Tau and Dark Angels aren't amongst those I wouldn't say unless you're a much better player or have a tonne of luck.

1. Keep in mind how many units have interceptor and when used you are taking the weapon off like. At most the broadsides and riptides will be able to intercept and this is where the Tau will have problems.
A. Do Tau shot the transport or the guy hopping out. If at the guys you can do what jayne said and use the boats as cover save. The wracks will get a +5/+5 save which is enough to weather the interceptor fire. Tau can't deny cover saves at this point.

B. If they choose the vehicle. The blast will hopefully kill tau and again the blast really won't hurt wracks. They might get cover blocking los now. More likely it will give you terrain since tau can easily destroy a boat, +5 invul saves is advisable.

The plus side you are dropping units around 150 points that have some durability to them. With a 6" disembark you can help limit scatter etc. You should be able to luqidfy a few tau here and there. You are going to lose guys, but by overwhelming the interceptor units with like 8 deep striking units Tau can't prevent all that from landing in their face.

You stil have to be selective and have to concentrate on the weakest side of the Tau defense. Done this with old daemons and it has always worked rather well. Grant it you are doing it on turn 1 and it is half your army.

I would say beastmasters wouldn't be a good ideal. With a 6+ save and Tau wounding that squad on 2s and 4s I would suggest against it. Wait it would be on 2s due to majority tougness. That squad would easily get blown away.

Wracks, Grotesques, and SSlyth, the snake guy. Are all high toughness with fnp which makes them a bit more durable. A squad of Grotesques are not easily blown away.

Against most armies I would say jayne's ideal is an awesome one, but against you have no cover save Tau it really is not going to work. What is a cover save? Most ask that vs Tau.

I still think mandrakes are great due to the double strength 4 ap 4 shots.

Another tactic is build lance heavy range and try to out shoot them. You have the range advantage with -6". The riptides should be a problem, but you are cutting marker lights to 30" which will force him to move his marker squads. If he went missle sides it also cut him down to 30" and limits his range. The rest of the tau army will be firing at 24". Take advantage of your range and just lance them to death.

You can use venoms to shoot at fire warrior squads advancing up the field. If you deploy everything back field his riptides is the only thing that can shoot you. 2/3 deployments will favor you if you decide to out range them and out shoot them. Focus fire the mobile units and the riptide. Any unit on his side comes within range of yours blast it away.

The lady would come in handy which will allow you to redeploy.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
Post by: Arguleon-veq on May 26, 2013, 08:20:40 PM
Ive been thinking about it and I actually believe Dark Eldar are one of the better builds for dealing with Tau.

I think the only really scary Tau army are when they have at least 2 missile broadside units, these are the big threats, fire warriors are nice but squishy. Riptides durable but actually have a poor damage output.

So beating tau comes down to beating broadsides.

With Dark Eldar you have the perfect tools. Thanks to nightshields you should always get the alpha strike against broadsides. If you take your average venom-spam list; 6+ venoms, 2+ ravagers. The venoms simply cruise into range, strip the broadsides bare of drones and your dark lances then take them down by instant killing them and bypassing their saves.

I think your going to see a lot more venoms when the new Wraithknight hits the table for eldar too, for Dark Eldar it will just be like killing 6 marines which isnt a problem at all where as most armies will be dominated by them.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
Post by: Arkitek on May 26, 2013, 08:53:31 PM
Wouldn't something like a Venom just get totally trashed by Fire Warriors?
Title: Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
Post by: Carrelio on May 26, 2013, 10:50:16 PM
A venom is getting trashed by tactical marines, it's not like Tau are anything special there.

I have played against Dark Eldar a lot with my new Tau (they are the army I play against most often actually), and quite contrary to the original poster's experience I find them quite a challenge.  Yes the Tau could blow them out of the water... but we're never going to get the chance to because Dark Eldar are just so much more maneuverable.

In deployment and board setup the Dark Eldar player seeks to put as much total LOS blocking terrain on the field as possible, while the Tau player should counter by trying to open up the largest kill-zones for himself possible.

Then Dark Eldar players should cover camp and use their night-fields to stay out of range of Tau's 30"-36" kill zones while still getting to return fire at full effectiveness, never fully exposing one's self to attack, and only even breaking line of site breaking cover when the total net gain of the maneuver would be advantageous over the Tau.

Destroy markerlights early to prevent having cover stripped (very easy to do against pathfinders, much harder to do against marker drones). Usually through use of an early turn alpha-strike that earns you first blood as well as completely disrupting the Tau battleplan (by removing their ability to hit the broadside of a landraider).

Use total LOS blocking terrain to launch your assaults.  Over-watch is done after the charge is declared but before the unit moves, meaning a unit behind a wall cannot be targeted for shooting, but is more than capable of charging.  This is especially potent given the abilities of the beast masters and razorwing flocks (providing a 24" potential CC killing bubble around their position).
Title: Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
Post by: Tom on May 26, 2013, 11:29:04 PM
Quote from: Carrelio on May 26, 2013, 10:50:16 PM
Use total LOS blocking terrain to launch your assaults.  Over-watch is done after the charge is declared but before the unit moves, meaning a unit behind a wall cannot be targeted for shooting, but is more than capable of charging. 
I think the rest of your points are good but you can't do this. A unit can never declare a charge against a unit that it cannot see (BRB p.20).
Title: Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
Post by: Carrelio on May 26, 2013, 11:32:23 PM
Well, that is good to know for future on my part, though I suppose the way around this is of course to have a single model peaking out who can see a single enemy model... at worst lose him to a single snap-shot and then charge with the rest.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
Post by: Unusual Suspect on May 29, 2013, 06:56:02 AM
Would it be gauche to mention there is a large forum thread (http://advancedtautactica.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=19839) on Advanced Tau Tactica that discusses this very issue from the Tau perspective?
Title: Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
Post by: Arguleon-veq on May 29, 2013, 05:39:48 PM
From what im seeing they are essentially just advising you to castle and shoot down their dangerous stuff? thats pretty obvious but its not something you should actually be able to do thanks to the effective range of venoms and ravagers. I wouldnt worry so much about their close combat units because you will kill those with overwatch with good deployment anyway.

The obvious problems are mobile ravagers and venoms. Rail Broadsides are actually pretty handy against them as their higher range allows them to engage DE from the start of the game. Hammerheads/Skyrays are also great and super durable against anything the DE can throw at them, your troops are going to have a rough time no matter what as if the DE player plays right you should never get to shoot his skimmers with things like fire warriors or kroot.

Devilfish can help you engage although the fish themselves wont get to shoot at the targets but fire warriors jumping out of them will have a range of 42'' which is enough to be a threat to DE.

If you want to rely on your tanks you should just go for a defense line and go to ground behind it with your troops untill the venoms are out of the picture.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
Post by: BigToof on May 29, 2013, 11:02:24 PM
Wow, this is really turning into a great discussion on both sides.
Now that I think about it, maybe my DE game wasn't that bad, it just felt weird being outgunned from the beginning (something I'm used to versus say... IG, but Tau used to be quality over quantity and all...).
And just... odd from the standpoint of being really feeling in danger from turn 1 and having to play really sneaky and use my mobility a lot more than I'm used to.
I guess nobody outguns the Tau...

Best,
-BT
Title: Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
Post by: The Man They Call Jayne on May 30, 2013, 02:14:34 AM
IG still do. Tau just have a different application of that firepower.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
Post by: Chicop76 on May 30, 2013, 02:28:24 AM
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on May 30, 2013, 02:14:34 AM
IG still do. Tau just have a different application of that firepower.

Played ig and it was what on what. The main differance is my whole army is a serious threat vs heavy weapons and tanks as threats. Flashlights are simply out ranged and strength 5 ap 5 hurts a lot more. Not to mention you totally negate cover.

That being said guard have more volume vs more accurate and cover denial. It turns in to one side saving and the other one can't.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
Post by: crisis_vyper on June 04, 2013, 03:59:29 PM
Quote from: BigToof on May 25, 2013, 04:00:54 AM
Never thought of going all Haemonculus, but it is an interesting option...

I also want to see what the new Eldar book has to offer, as if I can get some backup, that might help out a lot.

Anyone have any early ideas for Eldar/Dark Eldar synergy?

Best,
-BT

Been a while since I am here, and it seems that you are also still around Bigtoof.

Personally, I find that the Dark Eldar -Tau matchup is one of who can blow away the other person's advantage first. Both have the tools needed for it.

I am personally enjoying the idea of a Farseer on a jetbike with the Mantle of the Laughing god and the Spirit Stone special wargear. With that you essentially killl two birds with one stone, reducing the stupid expensive warp charge of two down to one, and also allowing the Farseer to have a constant +3 rerollable cover save. Sure you will lose IC, but if you are playing them as allies, it is not as big of a deal as the footprint of the Farseer is small enough.

In addition, the use of guide which is now improved to 24" is amazing for ravagers. For some reason people are always saying that you can mix and match powers from both the codex and the rulebook, but I am not seeing it so I will hold back from saying that you could potentially take both guide and prescience as powers.  War Walkers with Battle Focus is nasty, as it essentially means that they have a jump-shoot-jump and the idea that 24 bs4 scatter lasers is monstrously good on these guys. That 5+ invul is cute, but I will not rely on it much. I am still kind of uncertain about including the Crimson Hunter, for although the BS5 weapons and Vector Dancer is amazing, but I am a little paranoid about it not having any defensive upgrade whatsoever. But I am considering it due to the fact that I could free up one of my Dark Eldar heavy support slots for more ravagers.


As for Dark Eldar-Eldar Synergy, I seriously am surprised that no one is talking about this idea; take Illic Nightspear along with a huge squad of beastmasters and infiltrate them using Illic's special infiltrate rule to bring them as close as possible to the enemy, ignoring the minimum distance you have to stay away from the enemy. The stupid thing about infiltrate is that in the rulebook, it says that as long as there is at least one model with this rule in a squad they have infiltrate. Then if you could possible do so, try to keep the Baron close by enough so that he could attach himself to the unit while Illic detaches himself from the unit so that the unit will not be slowed down by Illic's infantry walking speed and gain the Baron's phantasm grenade launchers. I personally feel that this could be a very effective anti-Tau element.

If one were to play a Footdar list with the Dark Eldar-Eldar elements, you can pull quite a number of shenanigans especially when your main detachment is Eldar. That battle focus is the key for an effective list, and Dark Eldar support in the form of close combat elements complements the list well. Only problem with this list is the flying Heldrakes, but I believe that could be covered with a number of things in the Eldar list and Dark Eldar list.





Title: Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
Post by: Chicop76 on June 04, 2013, 04:34:18 PM
Quote from: crisis_vyper on June 04, 2013, 03:59:29 PM
Quote from: BigToof on May 25, 2013, 04:00:54 AM
Never thought of going all Haemonculus, but it is an interesting option...

I also want to see what the new Eldar book has to offer, as if I can get some backup, that might help out a lot.

Anyone have any early ideas for Eldar/Dark Eldar synergy?

Best,
-BT

Been a while since I am here, and it seems that you are also still around Bigtoof.

Personally, I find that the Dark Eldar -Tau matchup is one of who can blow away the other person's advantage first. Both have the tools needed for it.

I am personally enjoying the idea of a Farseer on a jetbike with the Mantle of the Laughing god and the Spirit Stone special wargear. With that you essentially killl two birds with one stone, reducing the stupid expensive warp charge of two down to one, and also allowing the Farseer to have a constant +3 rerollable cover save. Sure you will lose IC, but if you are playing them as allies, it is not as big of a deal as the footprint of the Farseer is small enough.

In addition, the use of guide which is now improved to 24" is amazing for ravagers. For some reason people are always saying that you can mix and match powers from both the codex and the rulebook, but I am not seeing it so I will hold back from saying that you could potentially take both guide and prescience as powers.  War Walkers with Battle Focus is nasty, as it essentially means that they have a jump-shoot-jump and the idea that 24 bs4 scatter lasers is monstrously good on these guys. That 5+ invul is cute, but I will not rely on it much. I am still kind of uncertain about including the Crimson Hunter, for although the BS5 weapons and Vector Dancer is amazing, but I am a little paranoid about it not having any defensive upgrade whatsoever. But I am considering it due to the fact that I could free up one of my Dark Eldar heavy support slots for more ravagers.


As for Dark Eldar-Eldar Synergy, I seriously am surprised that no one is talking about this idea; take Illic Nightspear along with a huge squad of beastmasters and infiltrate them using Illic's special infiltrate rule to bring them as close as possible to the enemy, ignoring the minimum distance you have to stay away from the enemy. The stupid thing about infiltrate is that in the rulebook, it says that as long as there is at least one model with this rule in a squad they have infiltrate. Then if you could possible do so, try to keep the Baron close by enough so that he could attach himself to the unit while Illic detaches himself from the unit so that the unit will not be slowed down by Illic's infantry walking speed and gain the Baron's phantasm grenade launchers. I personally feel that this could be a very effective anti-Tau element.

If one were to play a Footdar list with the Dark Eldar-Eldar elements, you can pull quite a number of shenanigans especially when your main detachment is Eldar. That battle focus is the key for an effective list, and Dark Eldar support in the form of close combat elements complements the list well. Only problem with this list is the flying Heldrakes, but I believe that could be covered with a number of things in the Eldar list and Dark Eldar list.
I mentioned doing it with str 4 ap 1 flamers that on a 6 cause instant death.

That being said if you use your beast that way the only way you can assault is if you go second since you can't assault if you go first.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
Post by: crisis_vyper on June 04, 2013, 11:39:05 PM
Quote from: Chicop76 on June 04, 2013, 04:34:18 PM
Quote from: crisis_vyper on June 04, 2013, 03:59:29 PM
Quote from: BigToof on May 25, 2013, 04:00:54 AM
Never thought of going all Haemonculus, but it is an interesting option...

I also want to see what the new Eldar book has to offer, as if I can get some backup, that might help out a lot.

Anyone have any early ideas for Eldar/Dark Eldar synergy?

Best,
-BT

Been a while since I am here, and it seems that you are also still around Bigtoof.

Personally, I find that the Dark Eldar -Tau matchup is one of who can blow away the other person's advantage first. Both have the tools needed for it.

I am personally enjoying the idea of a Farseer on a jetbike with the Mantle of the Laughing god and the Spirit Stone special wargear. With that you essentially killl two birds with one stone, reducing the stupid expensive warp charge of two down to one, and also allowing the Farseer to have a constant +3 rerollable cover save. Sure you will lose IC, but if you are playing them as allies, it is not as big of a deal as the footprint of the Farseer is small enough.

In addition, the use of guide which is now improved to 24" is amazing for ravagers. For some reason people are always saying that you can mix and match powers from both the codex and the rulebook, but I am not seeing it so I will hold back from saying that you could potentially take both guide and prescience as powers.  War Walkers with Battle Focus is nasty, as it essentially means that they have a jump-shoot-jump and the idea that 24 bs4 scatter lasers is monstrously good on these guys. That 5+ invul is cute, but I will not rely on it much. I am still kind of uncertain about including the Crimson Hunter, for although the BS5 weapons and Vector Dancer is amazing, but I am a little paranoid about it not having any defensive upgrade whatsoever. But I am considering it due to the fact that I could free up one of my Dark Eldar heavy support slots for more ravagers.


As for Dark Eldar-Eldar Synergy, I seriously am surprised that no one is talking about this idea; take Illic Nightspear along with a huge squad of beastmasters and infiltrate them using Illic's special infiltrate rule to bring them as close as possible to the enemy, ignoring the minimum distance you have to stay away from the enemy. The stupid thing about infiltrate is that in the rulebook, it says that as long as there is at least one model with this rule in a squad they have infiltrate. Then if you could possible do so, try to keep the Baron close by enough so that he could attach himself to the unit while Illic detaches himself from the unit so that the unit will not be slowed down by Illic's infantry walking speed and gain the Baron's phantasm grenade launchers. I personally feel that this could be a very effective anti-Tau element.

If one were to play a Footdar list with the Dark Eldar-Eldar elements, you can pull quite a number of shenanigans especially when your main detachment is Eldar. That battle focus is the key for an effective list, and Dark Eldar support in the form of close combat elements complements the list well. Only problem with this list is the flying Heldrakes, but I believe that could be covered with a number of things in the Eldar list and Dark Eldar list.
I mentioned doing it with str 4 ap 1 flamers that on a 6 cause instant death.

That being said if you use your beast that way the only way you can assault is if you go second since you can't assault if you go first.

I did not even say a first turn charge. It is more like giving him a hard choice, where he will be hardpressed to shoot either your transports with infantry with it or kill your monstrously huge squad of Beastmasters. Either way if he ignore one or the other, the other will bite him hard. I rather that I keep my Venoms and Ravagers alive of course, but that will not stop me from using said Beastmasters to be a killing blow and vanguard as needed. In addition the psychological factor of having  5, beastmasters, 15 Khymearas and 4 Razorwings around the 18-24" range is terrifying for a Tau player. Sure he could gun down that unit and sure that unit takes two turns to charge if I went first, but that also means that he have only one turn to kill that unit before that unit gobble up his army. Combined this with a Venom Spam, and you have yourself a recipe of 'damned if you do, damned if you don't". If I go second, then that means that the unit will now be able to charge the Tau lines very quickly if they survived the volley. If not they have already bought time for my transports and other vehicles to do a Beta strike that would work in the long run.

The Daemons/Chaos Marines players are already playing with the concept of a Flesh hound unit with Skulltaker, several Khorne Heralds and a Khorne Lord all on juggernauts to play with the scouting that is conferred to the squad. The core is still the same; bring that unit closer and give the opponent(s) a hard option.

There is also another reason why I proposed this combination.

The reason why I propose this is that it gives the current meta something to think about. Everyone seems to be going infantry heavy, but they also want to play a gunline game as well. These days for some reason the players tend to bunker up, believing that by doing so they could concentrate their firepower and take advantage of their special overwatch nonsense and bubbles to win them games. Inversely they also believe that spreading out is a fool's proposition. As a Tau and Dark Eldar player, and indeed as a fairly proficient gamer in 40k I find this prevalent mindset a very foolish proposition.

My main argument against castling is it gives a Dark Eldar player space in deployment but also space to maneuver. Firstly Dark Eldar mobility is dependent on transports, take those out first turn and there goes my ability to redeploy. What deployment will make it hardest for the Dark Eldar player to protect their transports? A more dispersed one for sure. This doesn't have mean the Tau will leave their  units isolated if they do it right.

This leads me to say that castling works only when you have multiple combined arms fire lanes and also an flank that will not collapse no matte the odds, such as a terrain. For players, it is imperative that they do not think that castling is an end in itself, but a means to an end. It is two very different mindsets of playing only to defend, and playing to take the hits and then counterattacking.

Of course one does not split up the troops foolishly but they must also remember that they also need to mix the two elements of attrition and also maneuver into their gameplay to win. If you are going to hug one objective securely but leave the other 2-4 objectives unmolested, then you have literally just lost the game. You need to secure that objective of yours AND make them pay for every other objective that they seek to take.  If the enemy is more maneuverable than you, of course splitting up will be foolish, but you will also have to engage them and try to not let them isolate your units. But once that maneuverability is gone, then of course you are going to push your advantage.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
Post by: Chicop76 on June 05, 2013, 01:14:24 AM
I still think 5 wraithguard with strength 4 ap 1 flamers is scarrier. Honestly at least 3 can wipe out most squad. Dat flamer experance there son. They pop in wipe a squad and than I go omg the flames of death is in me face. You really don't want to assault the wall of death. Which leaves you shoot baby shoot.

I think you get shrouding too so a +3 cover save due to area terrain baby.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
Post by: crisis_vyper on June 05, 2013, 01:29:26 AM
Quote from: Chicop76 on June 05, 2013, 01:14:24 AM
I still think 5 wraithguard with strength 4 ap 1 flamers is scarrier. Honestly at least 3 can wipe out most squad. Dat flamer experance there son. They pop in wipe a squad and than I go omg the flames of death is in me face. You really don't want to assault the wall of death. Which leaves you shoot baby shoot.

I think you get shrouding too so a +3 cover save due to area terrain baby.

I think you are missing my point. I was thinking of a large beast unit that have a threat range of 13-24" with rerollable fleet that functions as an aggressive deterrent, while the wraithguards function in a different  manner altogether.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
Post by: Chicop76 on June 05, 2013, 02:10:36 AM
Quote from: crisis_vyper on June 05, 2013, 01:29:26 AM
Quote from: Chicop76 on June 05, 2013, 01:14:24 AM
I still think 5 wraithguard with strength 4 ap 1 flamers is scarrier. Honestly at least 3 can wipe out most squad. Dat flamer experance there son. They pop in wipe a squad and than I go omg the flames of death is in me face. You really don't want to assault the wall of death. Which leaves you shoot baby shoot.

I think you get shrouding too so a +3 cover save due to area terrain baby.

I think you are missing my point. I was thinking of a large beast unit that have a threat range of 13-24" with rerollable fleet that functions as an aggressive deterrent, while the wraithguards function in a different  manner altogether.

Daemons do the same thing, but you don't have +3 invulnerble saves with endurance. Meaning rapid fire death with a unit of poor saves. However if you put a bunch of beastmaters up front you can allocate the way you like. Shrounding will help. Actually I would keep the ranger up front since he can have look out sir rolls on a 2+. I recon he makes all the saves and you do all the allocating. Strength 8 shot heads your way have mr toughness 5 take it. A bunch of static shots can go to the little rending guys. Almost no point in taking the invul save guys unless you face strength 10 and you allocate the strength 10 hits to them.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
Post by: BigToof on June 05, 2013, 02:43:37 AM
Hi Crisis!
Great to see you back!

I've been looking at your ideas and I totally agree with the Farseer build.

With Prescience and Guide as Primaris powers, you can twin-link 2 units from 24", which is just crazy.

Also, that "Harlequin" seer gets a re-rollable 2++ if you put them on a jetbike, and is so small you can easily hide them behind any vehicle.
Plus, giving them a T4 boost will mean that they can't be taken down by Baleflamers or the like.

I think the Farseer will be the big "go-to" HQ for the Dark-Eldar/Eldar builds, as you can start to get really silly with their synergy, and the other HQs, while interesting, I don't think will really let you do as much.  Plus, he's not going to break the bank and at WORST will give you twin-linking for free.

In a way, I think that the Eldar don't have a really good anti-air option, so the Dark Eldar flyers may have to be good enough for us...

The Crimson Hunter flyer is so flimsy compared to the VoidRaven, and is more expensive to boot.

But, I do like that the Dark Eldar and Eldar compliment each other.

Dark Eldar have lots of anti-infantry firepower at range that is cheap and mobile.

Eldar have sturdy, more expensive options that can take a beating and good anti-tank.

It seems actually sort of sensible to drop your Eldar units down and put the Dark Eldar in reserve to zoom on and start opening things up.

At least, these are my initial thoughts.

Let me know what you think!

Best,
-BT
Title: Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
Post by: crisis_vyper on June 05, 2013, 03:18:26 AM
Quote from: BigToof on June 05, 2013, 02:43:37 AM
Hi Crisis!
Great to see you back!

Good to be back. :)

Quote from: BigToof on June 05, 2013, 02:43:37 AM
I've been looking at your ideas and I totally agree with the Farseer build.

With Prescience and Guide as Primaris powers, you can twin-link 2 units from 24", which is just crazy.

The thing is that I want to roll on the Eldar Runes of Fate for Doom, but if doom fails I would take guide. Divination is divination, hence the obvious choice. :P

Quote from: BigToof on June 05, 2013, 02:43:37 AM
I think the Farseer will be the big "go-to" HQ for the Dark-Eldar/Eldar builds, as you can start to get really silly with their synergy, and the other HQs, while interesting, I don't think will really let you do as much.  Plus, he's not going to break the bank and at WORST will give you twin-linking for free.

I already modeled a Medusae on a jetbike to count as my Farseer, so I will be happy to keep my Dark Eldar theme on everything.

Quote
In a way, I think that the Eldar don't have a really good anti-air option, so the Dark Eldar flyers may have to be good enough for us...

The Crimson Hunter flyer is so flimsy compared to the VoidRaven, and is more expensive to boot.

I am honestly not sure, but the fact that it is in the fast attack slot interests me for sure  as it frees up my Heavy support slot for something more efficient. So far my current plan is to take 1 squadron of 3 War Walkers with scatter lasers, 0-1 Crimson Hunter, 0-1 Voidraven  and 2-3 Ravagers to fill in for most of my anti-vehicle/anti-air stuff.

Quote from: BigToof on June 05, 2013, 02:43:37 AM
Dark Eldar have lots of anti-infantry firepower at range that is cheap and mobile.

Eldar have sturdy, more expensive options that can take a beating and good anti-tank.

For me Dark Eldar is where the anti-tank and anti-infantry comes from, while the Eldar is where the force multiplier and anti-air comes from.

So far my 1750 pts list looks to be kinda a little 'dry' for the Dark Eldar part to incorporate the Eldar stuff, but it is very firepower heavy. What do you think about this Bigtoof? I personally think that firepower-wise I am powerful enough, but the weird part is that my list only has 22 infantry and 4 jetbikers....... :shifty:

Farseer with mantle and jetbike
Archon with blaster
2 squads of 3 Trueborns with Blasters in a Venom with extra splinter cannons
3 squads of 5 warriors with a blaster in a Venom with extra splinter cannons
1 squad of 3 wracks in a  in Venoms with extra splinter cannons
1 squad of 3 guardian jetbikers
1 Crimson hunter
1 squad of 3 war walkers with 2 scatter lasers each
3 Ravagers, each with 3 lances
Title: Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
Post by: BigToof on June 05, 2013, 03:32:01 AM
You know, this is a crazy suggestion, but you might have too many Venoms.

You can saturate the area with poison, but it's really only great against high toughness enemies.  Maybe diversifying a bit would help?

I'm actually starting to wonder if getting Wracks with 2x Liquifier guns and then using prescience to twin-link it all would be useful.  You could potentially melt a lot of Marines and charging them suddenly became really scary.

War Walkers are actually fairly decent shots with BS4 and the good chance to become twin linked with their scatter laser.
I'm tempted to try them with a Bright Lance, as three twin-linked BS4 Lances that can shoot and run/hide seems pretty good for their points.

I'm going to be trying a Fire Prism soon, so I want to see how they work, as it may help mitigate some of the need for anti-tank, and it's certainly tougher than the Walkers.  I'm just not sold 100% as they can fall to a lucky melta, and aren't that cheap.

Let me know how the Hunter works out for you.  It seems really great, but I can just see it falling apart by lucky bolter shots...

Best,
-BT

Title: Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
Post by: crisis_vyper on June 05, 2013, 03:56:54 AM
Quote from: BigToof on June 05, 2013, 03:32:01 AM
You know, this is a crazy suggestion, but you might have too many Venoms.

You can saturate the area with poison, but it's really only great against high toughness enemies.  Maybe diversifying a bit would help?

Agree, but I will try and see if this configuration works for now. I do not have any anti-infantry at all other than the Venoms and the War Walkers, hence the reason behind using 6 venoms.


Quote
War Walkers are actually fairly decent shots with BS4 and the good chance to become twin linked with their scatter laser.
I'm tempted to try them with a Bright Lance, as three twin-linked BS4 Lances that can shoot and run/hide seems pretty good for their points.

Sadly enough it does not work that way with two Scatter lasers on one War Walker. Those with the Laser lock needs to fire first before any other weapon, so two scatter lasers would be firing at the same time, thus not allowing you to have the twin-linked scatter lasers (I REALLY WANT THAT TWIN-LINKED BS$ SCATTER LASER SHIT IF YOU ASK ME!!!!!!!) However if you put a bright lance with a scatter laser, then it would work to make the bright lance twin-linked. I am considering that maybe I should mix my weapons, but I decided against it for now.

Quote
I'm going to be trying a Fire Prism soon, so I want to see how they work, as it may help mitigate some of the need for anti-tank, and it's certainly tougher than the Walkers.  I'm just not sold 100% as they can fall to a lucky melta, and aren't that cheap.

I find that if you want to use Prisms you need to commit to having at least two of them on the field. One does not create an impact. Have you considered the Night Spinner?. :-\

Quote
Let me know how the Hunter works out for you.  It seems really great, but I can just see it falling apart by lucky bolter shots...

That is my life as a Dark Eldar player, so I am personally desensitized to it already.   :facepalm001:
Title: Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
Post by: BigToof on June 07, 2013, 02:43:06 AM
I'm starting to come around to the Crimson Hunter=OK thought process.  Perhaps it's that my opponent can usually only get to shoot EITHER my Voidraven or the Hunter, so that'll be worth it.

Just I love the Warp Spiders so much, as they have so much mobility and S7 shots out the wazoo.

Agree that War Walkers should get something for their twin Scatter Lasers, but it's better than nothing I suppose...

Have you given any serious thought to the Support Batteries?  I'm not sure as they're so stationary, and I think a good Eldar allies should also be very mobile.

Best,
-BT
Title: Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
Post by: Kur'os on June 07, 2013, 08:21:24 PM
Quote from: crisis_vyper on June 04, 2013, 03:59:29 PMAs for Dark Eldar-Eldar Synergy, I seriously am surprised that no one is talking about this idea; take Illic Nightspear along with a huge squad of beastmasters and infiltrate them using Illic's special infiltrate rule to bring them as close as possible to the enemy, ignoring the minimum distance you have to stay away from the enemy. The stupid thing about infiltrate is that in the rulebook, it says that as long as there is at least one model with this rule in a squad they have infiltrate.

This doesn't work. 

Illic does have infiltrate, which transfers to his unit.  But his ability to ignore the minimum required distance to an enemy is not a USR or part of Infiltrate, so the rest of the unit will not receive the ability.

-Kur'os
Title: Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
Post by: crisis_vyper on June 07, 2013, 09:29:04 PM
Quote from: Kur'os on June 07, 2013, 08:21:24 PM
Quote from: crisis_vyper on June 04, 2013, 03:59:29 PMAs for Dark Eldar-Eldar Synergy, I seriously am surprised that no one is talking about this idea; take Illic Nightspear along with a huge squad of beastmasters and infiltrate them using Illic's special infiltrate rule to bring them as close as possible to the enemy, ignoring the minimum distance you have to stay away from the enemy. The stupid thing about infiltrate is that in the rulebook, it says that as long as there is at least one model with this rule in a squad they have infiltrate.

This doesn't work. 

Illic does have infiltrate, which transfers to his unit.  But his ability to ignore the minimum required distance to an enemy is not a USR or part of Infiltrate, so the rest of the unit will not receive the ability.

-Kur'os

It is still out on the table about his 'Uber-infiltrate' until they FAQ it.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
Post by: Arguleon-veq on June 07, 2013, 09:43:12 PM
I dont see why it would need FAQ'ing. Infiltrate is a USR that passes on to a unit, his other rule isnt a USR so it doesnt confer to his unit.

Im pretty sure that the whole 'no minimum distance' would also mean that they can start in combat with a unit.
Title: Re: Dark Eldar: No Chance against Tau?
Post by: crisis_vyper on June 24, 2013, 08:53:32 AM
Trying my best with the current Dark Eldar-Eldar alliance list at a 1500 pts level to see how it works, and so far there are a few things that I am really fond about and some things that gave me a headache.

1) Psychic powers really help in making the Ravagers more reliable in their anti-tannk duties

2) War Walkers with Scatter Lasers are amazing, but I will have to remind myself that they can battlefocus. Forgotten it a few times in my game and left them to die in the open. Also I might consider the Scatter Laser-Starcannon layout so that it could have a bit more punch.

3) Crimson Hunter is interesting, but oddly enough I find that the Voidraven is more survivable.

4) I find that I really do not want to use more troops, and instead focus upon the killing side of things. But at the same time, the troops are also the easiest slot to pack in the killing power of the list, especially the Venom.

5) Trueborns with blasters do not synergize as well with Eldar allies, and thus I would have to figure out a replacement for the unit if I choose to play Eldar allies. Ironically,Incubi are now more preferable as compared to Trueborns if I were to take Eldar allies.



The dillemma for me now is this; do I want to go pure Dark Eldar or have a mix between the two Eldar races?