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'Point Blank.' (Or, weapon Range extra rules.)

Started by Waaaghpower, April 15, 2013, 06:03:18 PM

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Waaaghpower

So, it always bothers me that range has no influence on how accurate a given person may be. It doesn't matter if you're using a rifle at 24" or a pistol an inch away from your opponent, each shot is equally likely to hit. That, and after the weapon's maximum range the bullets just vanish and can't fire any further. Does this seem stupid to anyone else? Realistically, a gun would be accurate to a certain range, but still be able to hit targets further away. It would just be an innacurate shot due to the weapon not being designed for it. And at closer range, weapons like heavy cannons and rocket launchers would probably be harder to fire, but assault rifles and machine guns would be easier to aim. Anyways, here's my adjusted weapon rules:

All weapons (Except template and blast,) can fire at up to 1/3 greater than their maximum range, representing a wildly innacurate 'Long shot.' If so, the ballistic skill of the firer is halved, rounding down. Long Shots may not be taken when firing snap shots or by characters with BS1, as half of 1 rounding down would be 0.

Each type of ranged weapon (except Blast or Template weapons,) have four categories for range. 'Long Shot,' 'Maximum,' 'Standard,' and 'Point Blank'. Long shot is above the weapons maximum range, Maximum is shots equal or greater than 5/6 the gun's maximum range, Standard is any shot from 2/6 to 4/6 the weapon's range, and Point Blank is any shot 1/6 or less than the weapon's range. (Hereby referred to as LS, M, S, and PB.) Certain bonuses or penalties may be applied that differ from standard rules. (Special changes only noted when present, otherwise assume normal BS or penalties as per the appropriate range.)
Assault Weapons: PB - All point blank shots are taken at +1 Ballistic Skill.
Heavy Weapons: LS - When firing a Long Shot with a heavy weapon, it may be taken at up to 50% greater than maximum range. PB - All point blank shots are taken at -1 Ballistic Skill.
Ordnance: LS - Ordnance weapons cannot fire long shots.
Pistols: LS - Shots are taken at -1 BS in addition to standard penalties. (Apply after halving.) M - Shots are taken at -1 BS. PB - Point Blank shots are taken at +2 Ballistic Skill.
Rapid Fire/Salvo: PB - Point blank shots are taken at +1 Ballistic skill.


Tips? Suggestions? Standard Range generally doesn't do anything and Maximum range rarely comes up.
Will this make any particular army overpowered/Underpowered? Pros or cons of this system?
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Narric

Seems a bit long winded and confusing. How about:

- The Weapons' Codex given Range is renamed to "Effective Range"
- All Weapons have unlimited Max Range.
- All shooting above the weapons' "Effective Range" suffers a penalty of -1 to To Hit rolls per each additional 12".
- Any shooting within half the weapons' Effective range gains +1 to To Hit Rolls.
- Any shooting within 3" gains +1 shot regardless of Weapon type.
- Weapons mounted onto Vehicles do not gain any advantages to shots fired within their weapons' Effective Range, but do suffer penalties from targeting beyond their Effective Range.

How about that?

Obviously template weapons don't get much out of this, and I'm not sure how to tackle Blast Weapons, aside from ignoring "Direct Hit" on the Scatter dice.

Waaaghpower

Hmm... that rather gives an advantage to pistols and short range weapons. A Lascannon can now fire an extra 20% ordo at -1 BS, but a pistol can double its range for the same penalty. Change 12" to 1/3 effective range, and you've got a better plan. (So pistols gain 4 inches but lascannons gain a fully deserved 24".)
Other than that, though, I like your plan better.
(Maybe the +1 shot should be changed to +1 bs, though. That'd also make single shot weapons dastardly good while hardly helping things with lots of shots.)
Super Mario 3D World is The. Best. Thing.

The Man They Call Jayne

Why not just keep it really simple and make all shots past the listed maximum range are snap shots?
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Narric

I threw in +1 shot, becuase with shorter distance, the same volume of shots is going to hit more body :P

I can understand the 1/3 thing. However, giving an actual number speeds up deciding how large a penalty you're going to roll with. Why not reduce it to per 6"?

Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on April 15, 2013, 06:25:05 PM
Why not just keep it really simple and make all shots past the listed maximum range are snap shots?
That may simplify matters, but it may also be too simplified.

It effectively treats the weapons maximum range, as something similar to the edge of a Discworld. Anything beyond is just flying off into the blue yonder.

The Man They Call Jayne

As it is now they just stop in mid air. Call it +1 BS at <6" and snap shots over Max Range. That way it covers all the bases. The weapon is simply not  accurate outside it listed range unless you get lucky.

That snapshot cannot be effected by things that would normally boost BS.
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Narric

Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on April 15, 2013, 06:35:58 PM
As it is now they just stop in mid air. Call it +1 BS at <6" and snap shots over Max Range. That way it covers all the bases. The weapon is simply not  accurate outside it listed range unless you get lucky.
However a shot at +6" of a weapons "Eff Range" is going to have a better chance of hitting a target then one at +24" of Eff Range.

Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on April 15, 2013, 06:35:58 PM
That snapshot cannot be effected by things that would normally boost BS.
Doesn't that deny the use of Markerlights then?

The Man They Call Jayne

If pistol range is 12" then anything withing 6" is easily in range of anything. Large weapons like rifles are more unweildy, smaller weapons have less range, so it averages out.

And yes it denies markers. Unlimited range BS5 Pulse Rifles would be broken as fuck.
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Narric

Hmm, when you put it like that, Snap Shots does sound like a far more balanced route. :P

Arkitek

Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on April 15, 2013, 06:35:58 PM
As it is now they just stop in mid air. Call it +1 BS at <6" and snap shots over Max Range. That way it covers all the bases. The weapon is simply not  accurate outside it listed range unless you get lucky.

That snapshot cannot be effected by things that would normally boost BS.
Um. Can you imagine what effect this would have on Fire Warrior teams, which can already put out four shots to the man at close range if you bring an Ethereal and a Fireblade?
"Of course I forgive you. That is your god's function. Your crime is forgiven. However, your stupidity requires a response." - Leto Atreides II, God Emperor of Dune

Narric

I admit this is Thread Necromancy, but I do have something to add



This is mostly drawn from my experience with a PC game and whilst reading through the rules of other Tabletop wargames.

The former is Frontline: Tactics. A turn based Squad Micromanaging War game.
In this game each weapon (by weapon type and each individual weapon within a type) have different amount of damage output depending on the distance to the target. Pistols inflict more damage up close, Sniper Rifles have a sweet Spot in their mid-range, and SMGs (going from memory as don't have time to open the game to check) inflict the most damage at long range, whilst also having and arc of fire (think flamer templates).

Each weapon has a pre-defined base distance for short-range, Mid-range and Long-range damage. to give scale, one unit ~=1m. A Pistol (from memory) has two units at short range, three and mid and two at long range, with its damage decreasing between each banding.

People who have me as a friend on Facebook have probably seen me ramble about a tabletop wargame called "Void 1.1."
Within the rules for shooting, you have the simple roll to hit (on a d10, with stats maxing at 10) and depending on the weapon being fired and what distance, you will have certain modifiers to your to hit roll.

For example, a Syntha Hunter-killer Grav Bike is equipped with a Mounted Chain Gun. At short range, you roll once, with a +1 to your to hit roll (BS4 to 5), and if you hit, inflict three wounds, that then wound at equivalent to Str 6 per wound. At medium range, you still have +1 to hit, but only two wounds if you hit, and the DAM is decreased by 1. at long range, you're shooting at your BS, inflict only a single wound @ Str5, and lastly at extreme range its -1 to hit, one wound, and Str5.
Short, Medium, Long and Extreme are all predefined by the core rulebook as being up to 12", 12" to 24", 24" to 36", and 36" to 48" respectively.
This does effectively cap every weapon in the game to 48", and some weapons don't have the option to go beyond Medium range for example.

Lastly, in Void, Ranged Templates (Blast Weapons) are also effected different. for starters, when you fire the missile, its going cause damage no matter what, as you roll to hit as normal, and then roll off to see who places the template in/on the target unit. If you miss, the blast template scatters further depending on how far you are from the target. it is effectly 1D10 for each distance band, so 1D10 for Short range, then 2d10, then 3d10, then 4d10. It is again capped distance wise, as only scattering half the distance from the firer to the target.

There is also the old tabletop wargame called Robogear, originating from Russia and was maintained here in the west by Airfix. It also featured a ranged based damage system for weapons, alongside a completely different mechanic for movement and the number of shots a model could make.
It was basically Short, Mid and Long range, and like Frontline, the weapons had a sweat-spot for maximum damage.
- Rifleman could put out 14pts of damage
- Snipers could fire half as much, but both gained +1 to their to hit rolls, and did more damage at mid range.
- Machine Gunners could put out near four times as much damage compared to the Rifleman, and can fire at two different targets for each shot.
- The Bomber could put out the fewest shots, but at short and mid range did double the amount of damage to the rifleman.
Vehicles in this system also had insane amount of mobility and firepower output.
The system is old, as I said, and I believe that most copies of it will either be collecting dust, part of a collection, or on eBay.




I thought I'd throw these three examples of ranged affecting shooting results. Frontline: Tactics really does force you to decide whether to stay still or move to achieve the greatest amount of damage onto the opponent (something the enemy AI is insanely annoying at doing very effectively). I personally have yet to actually test the ruleset for Void. Based on my interpretations of the rules, its a fairly interesting mechanic, and when you and your opponent(s) are taking it in turn to "Activate" each unit in order to act, it becomes very important to know how to do the most damage. Robogear seems like 40k, but with the aspects I've highlight from Void, whilst having a few interesting mechanics of its own.

Before anyone tells me off for posting so much of the rules for Void, it is available both as a free download or as a physically book from Scotia Grendal. Shameless promotion, but check them out if you want some interesting models or a different set of rules to try out.
Robogear is partially still available to read about from the official site, but it is unfortunately falling into OOP side of wargaming.

CoffeeGrunt

The other problem is that beyond a weapon's effective range, the actual damage they inflict is also reduced. Taking both of these into account when firing weapons with such variable range as in 40K would simply add to much bookkeeping and bog the game down.

This is why games like Attack Wing and Firestorm Armada just have "range bands" that are relatively universal, but have different effects depending on the band used.
The only constant in the universe is change; the Wise adapt.

Narric

Quote from: CoffeeGrunt on May 29, 2014, 10:31:40 AM
The other problem is that beyond a weapon's effective range, the actual damage they inflict is also reduced. Taking both of these into account when firing weapons with such variable range as in 40K would simply add to much bookkeeping and bog the game down.

This is why games like Attack Wing and Firestorm Armada just have "range bands" that are relatively universal, but have different effects depending on the band used.
Thats pretty much what I just described for Frontline: Tactics, Void and Robogear :P

The only real problem with such a system and 40k, is that 40k would require  full overhaul to its mechanics to inlcude the system.