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Taking on New Tau, what will work?

Started by Arguleon-veq, April 14, 2013, 12:17:09 AM

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KCKitsune

Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on April 16, 2013, 11:48:44 AM
For you to get 9 Drop Pods in your game would have to be VAST as you cannot place more than half your army in reserve now.

In addition, as you cannot assault the turn you arrive from reserve you are at the mercy of Tau Rapid fire, which, if an Ethereal is nearby, means 3 Pulse shots from every rifle within 15" and every carbine within 9". With Markers, there isn't much that will survive the sheer weight of numbers.

If you have Fireblade Cadre, then that squad will get 4 shots at 15... plus if you have any marker drones and they hit... the next squad will overwatch on 5+ (or 4+... or if you're rather damn lucky 2+) rather than 6...
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The Man They Call Jayne

I don't believe the Ethereal and Fireblade bonuses are meant to stack, and I don't play it that way.
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Scout Sergeant Mkoll

Quote from: KCKitsune on April 16, 2013, 02:15:23 PM
If you have Fireblade Cadre, then that squad will get 4 shots at 15... plus if you have any marker drones and they hit... the next squad will overwatch on 5+ (or 4+... or if you're rather damn lucky 2+) rather than 6...
Sorry, but that shouldn't work.

As far as I'm concerned the Fireblade shouldn't stack with the Ethereal. I know that until it's FAQ'd there will be arguments about it, but the idea of such a cheap squad putting out 4 shots a turn with the best basic infantry weapon in the game is beyond utterly stupid, even for Games Workshop.
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May the brave be remembered forever. Farewell our friends.

Quote from: Mabbz on June 03, 2011, 10:43:53 AM
Mkoll wins.

Quote from: LordDemon
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to catch you.

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Alcibiates

It's only one unit, it becomes the dominant target for your opponent's anti-infantry, and it eats both of your hq choices. I think it's meant to work that way. If the ethereal is meant to catch all firewarrior units within 12" (conga line, catch all of your units), fireblade ethereal combo is surely meant to work.

Scout Sergeant Mkoll

Quote from: Alcibiates on April 16, 2013, 03:55:03 PM
It's only one unit, it becomes the dominant target for your opponent's anti-infantry, and it eats both of your hq choices. I think it's meant to work that way. If the ethereal is meant to catch all firewarrior units within 12" (conga line, catch all of your units), fireblade ethereal combo is surely meant to work.
How many units get the 4 shots is besides the point. The idea of 4 shots per standard infantry model, with the best standard gun in the game AND the ability of the army to boost BS/Ignore cover etc is retarded. Especially for the price. I don't think even GW are bad enough at writing rules for that to be the intent.
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Quote from: Mabbz on June 03, 2011, 10:43:53 AM
Mkoll wins.

Quote from: LordDemon
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to catch you.

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Pottsey

Quote from: Scout Sergeant Mkoll on April 16, 2013, 04:31:03 PM
Quote from: Alcibiates on April 16, 2013, 03:55:03 PM
It's only one unit, it becomes the dominant target for your opponent's anti-infantry, and it eats both of your hq choices. I think it's meant to work that way. If the ethereal is meant to catch all firewarrior units within 12" (conga line, catch all of your units), fireblade ethereal combo is surely meant to work.
How many units get the 4 shots is besides the point. The idea of 4 shots per standard infantry model, with the best standard gun in the game AND the ability of the army to boost BS/Ignore cover etc is retarded. Especially for the price. I don't think even GW are bad enough at writing rules for that to be the intent.
We are talking over 200 points for a troop squad at T3 with armor 4. Hardly that overpowered for a 4 shot 15" range weapon and the squad is worth up to 2 Victory points if killed.

Wouldn't it be cheaper to just buy two single troop squads be worth the same amount of victory points and get the same amount of shots. It would even save you points and give you more wounds.

Scout Sergeant Mkoll

Quote from: Pottsey on April 16, 2013, 04:51:50 PM
Quote from: Scout Sergeant Mkoll on April 16, 2013, 04:31:03 PM
Quote from: Alcibiates on April 16, 2013, 03:55:03 PM
It's only one unit, it becomes the dominant target for your opponent's anti-infantry, and it eats both of your hq choices. I think it's meant to work that way. If the ethereal is meant to catch all firewarrior units within 12" (conga line, catch all of your units), fireblade ethereal combo is surely meant to work.
How many units get the 4 shots is besides the point. The idea of 4 shots per standard infantry model, with the best standard gun in the game AND the ability of the army to boost BS/Ignore cover etc is retarded. Especially for the price. I don't think even GW are bad enough at writing rules for that to be the intent.
We are talking over 200 points for a troop squad at T3 with armor 4. Hardly that overpowered for a 4 shot 15" range weapon and the squad is worth up to 2 Victory points if killed.
That's nice. I play Dark Eldar. I pay 160pts for a T3 squad of Hellions with a 5+ save that gets 2 shots/model a turn. The Firewarriors need 2+ to wound that unit, and most other units come to that. My unit needs 4+ to wound anything, regardless of Toughness. Tell me, even without markerlights to remove cover, hell even with only one of the Ethereal or Fireblade so the Tau are actually cheaper, what makes you think my unit stands a hope in hell of doing a damned thing? Put both in and it goes from extreme to ridiculous, and doesn't cost much more than those Hellions.

I'd also like to point out that while a few Tau players try arguing "they're really fragile and blind as a bat" (Not saying you have Pottsey), BS3 is average, not poor, and a 4+ save is a bloody good save. Especially for a Xenos race. Firewarriors may be wounded as easily as most units in the game, but they have much better survival odds than most of them.
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Quote from: Mabbz on June 03, 2011, 10:43:53 AM
Mkoll wins.

Quote from: LordDemon
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to catch you.

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Chicop76

#22
The fireblade and etheral combo sounds good, but put into practice is not as good as you realize.

1. Firewarriors can't move to get the fireblade's bonus: meaning that his squad should not move. Interesting with him pathfinders can shoot 3 times at a possible 24" and even nicer if you add darkstrider, but it means no lights.

2. The Etheral only works within rapid fire range or at 1/2 range, so no extra shooting unless within rapid fire range.

What this translates to is the fireblade squad can't move at all if it wants both bonuses. To get off the 4 rapid fire shots like you want the enemy have to get within 15" of the squad for you to do that or if you move in such a way you set up the 4 rapid fire shots.

If you think about it it probably does stack, but GW is laughing at you trying to use both abilities and think you're getting over in one squad.

Personally since the Etheral can grant extra shooting to anyone with 12" that mets his criteria than is is more plauseable that a fire blade squad sits still and shoot and another squad enters rapid fire range using the Etheral bonus.

The combo does work if someone is foolish enough to deepstrike on you. Just from experance it is very stupid to deep strike in Tau lines. Unless the Tau player is bad and not running interceptor or markerlights.

At this point you should be asking yourself does two fireblades stack rather than trying to pull off the fireblade and etheral combo on one squad.


Scout Sergeant Mkoll

Quote from: Chicop76 on April 16, 2013, 07:56:15 PM
2. The Etheral only works within rapid fire range or at 1/2 range, so no extra shooting unless within rapid fire range.

What this translates to is the fireblade squad can't move at all if it wants both bonuses. To get off the 4 rapid fire shots like you want the enemy have to get within 15" of the squad for you to do that or if you move in such a way you set up the 4 rapid fire shots.

If you think about it it probably does stack, but GW is laughing at you trying to use both abilities and think you're getting over in one squad.
Yes, because 15" is such close range. ::) Oh, wait, no it's not. It's still safely out of the average charge range and safely out of everyone else's rapid fire range except Sternguard. If it turns out that GW FAQ these 2 abilities to stack then playing against Tau is going to become almost literally impossible, and very, very boring for most other armies, regardless of the list they decide to bring. So no, they should not stack.
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May the brave be remembered forever. Farewell our friends.

Quote from: Mabbz on June 03, 2011, 10:43:53 AM
Mkoll wins.

Quote from: LordDemon
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to catch you.

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Chicop76

Quote from: Scout Sergeant Mkoll on April 16, 2013, 08:32:54 PM
Quote from: Chicop76 on April 16, 2013, 07:56:15 PM
2. The Etheral only works within rapid fire range or at 1/2 range, so no extra shooting unless within rapid fire range.

What this translates to is the fireblade squad can't move at all if it wants both bonuses. To get off the 4 rapid fire shots like you want the enemy have to get within 15" of the squad for you to do that or if you move in such a way you set up the 4 rapid fire shots.

If you think about it it probably does stack, but GW is laughing at you trying to use both abilities and think you're getting over in one squad.
Yes, because 15" is such close range. ::) Oh, wait, no it's not. It's still safely out of the average charge range and safely out of everyone else's rapid fire range except Sternguard. If it turns out that GW FAQ these 2 abilities to stack then playing against Tau is going to become almost literally impossible, and very, very boring for most other armies, regardless of the list they decide to bring. So no, they should not stack.

Be happy fire warriors can't shoot 36" and have a rapid of 18", I did look to see if that was possible :P. Anyway a savy player will no not to be in that range. Also would it really matter anyway. Like I said before you could just give it to another squad and you still getting a high volume of shots. Although 66 possible shots from one squad is a lot, counting gun drones. However guard can dish out 150 shots in rapid fire range and years later they can still do so.


Scout Sergeant Mkoll

Quote from: Chicop76 on April 16, 2013, 08:44:45 PM
Be happy fire warriors can't shoot 36" and have a rapid of 18", I did look to see if that was possible :P. Anyway a savy player will no not to be in that range. Also would it really matter anyway. Like I said before you could just give it to another squad and you still getting a high volume of shots. Although 66 possible shots from one squad is a lot, counting gun drones. However guard can dish out 150 shots in rapid fire range and years later they can still do so.
I am happy they can't do that. That doesn't mean I can't be unhappy with what they can do simply because GW can't be bothered checking their own rules. :P

I'm well aware of what the Imperial Guard can get. However, I'm also fully aware that the Imperial Guard guns are not S5 AP5, can not have boosted BS and they cannot be modified to completely ignore cover without a lucky psyker roll. Furthermore, all of those Guard shots have to go at 1 target, almost certainly resulting in quite a bit of overkill. The Tau don't have that problem. They can just put 40 shots into target A, then 30 into target B and another 30 into target C and so on. There is no way a model that costs a little over half the price of my Hellions, or just under 2/3 the price of a Marine should be able to pump out that much firepower. Just no.
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May the brave be remembered forever. Farewell our friends.

Quote from: Mabbz on June 03, 2011, 10:43:53 AM
Mkoll wins.

Quote from: LordDemon
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to catch you.

[img]http

Chicop76

Quote from: Scout Sergeant Mkoll on April 16, 2013, 09:05:46 PM
Quote from: Chicop76 on April 16, 2013, 08:44:45 PM
Be happy fire warriors can't shoot 36" and have a rapid of 18", I did look to see if that was possible :P. Anyway a savy player will no not to be in that range. Also would it really matter anyway. Like I said before you could just give it to another squad and you still getting a high volume of shots. Although 66 possible shots from one squad is a lot, counting gun drones. However guard can dish out 150 shots in rapid fire range and years later they can still do so.
I am happy they can't do that. That doesn't mean I can't be unhappy with what they can do simply because GW can't be bothered checking their own rules. :P

I'm well aware of what the Imperial Guard can get. However, I'm also fully aware that the Imperial Guard guns are not S5 AP5, can not have boosted BS and they cannot be modified to completely ignore cover without a lucky psyker roll. Furthermore, all of those Guard shots have to go at 1 target, almost certainly resulting in quite a bit of overkill. The Tau don't have that problem. They can just put 40 shots into target A, then 30 into target B and another 30 into target C and so on. There is no way a model that costs a little over half the price of my Hellions, or just under 2/3 the price of a Marine should be able to pump out that much firepower. Just no.

Not to mention a comander that can overwatch at bs 2 with a bunch of drones at bs 2 thanks to a drone controller. 12 drones can easily make over watch fire a plus bs of 4. In other words you can have two firewarrior squads over watch at bs 5 with 24 shots a piece from each squad. +12 more if you have an etheral near by.

If guard take allies they can re roll to hit and they can mke you re roll on cover saves.

I mean if you survive the shooting and overwatch, get through the defensive grenades, and the +1 cover save due to d grenades, and the +4 save. Than they are not that hard to kill.


InsaneTD

Ok, 1, Depending on mission, it starts at 2 VP but can quickly go up if your opponent is clever. Not hard to get more.
2, Firewarriors cannot split fire, so unless you were talking about several sqauds which leads me too,
3, Fireblade only effects the squad he joins.
4, Sniper drones with Fireblade and Ethereal are worse. They are sniper weapons with a 24" rapidfire.

Pottsey

Quote from: Tybalt Defet on April 17, 2013, 05:25:53 AM
Ok, 1, Depending on mission, it starts at 2 VP but can quickly go up if your opponent is clever. Not hard to get more.
2, Firewarriors cannot split fire, so unless you were talking about several sqauds which leads me too,
3, Fireblade only effects the squad he joins.
4, Sniper drones with Fireblade and Ethereal are worse. They are sniper weapons with a 24" rapidfire.
Fireblade cannot boost Sniper weapons.

InsaneTD