Second Sphere

See this thread for the model in question - http://secondsphere.org/index.php/topic,148202.0.html

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Info:

Quote from: Warhammer 40k WikiThe Stormbird was the Imperial dropship used by the Space Marine Legions during the Great Crusade just before the outbreak of the Horus Heresy and the introduction of the Thunderhawk gunship still used at the present time by almost all Space Marine Chapters. They were void-capable as well as versatile in atmospheric flight. The actual Adeptus Mechanicus pattern type of the Stormbird was the Warhawk VI. The Stormbird played a similar tactical role for the Astartes to that of the Thunderhawk gunship today, and it had many weapons for supporting troops while deploying planetside from its front hatch. Stormbirds were first manufactured on Terra by the Yndonesic Bloc for use against the Panpacific techno-barbarian tribes during the Unification Wars that united all of Terra under the rule of the Emperor of Mankind before the start of the Great Crusade in the 31st Millennium. Their wings can be folded or collapsed back against the Stormbird's chassis in some manner when the spacecraft was not in-atmosphere. A Stormbird was bulkier and larger than a Thunderhawk and also less agile in flight. However, the Stormbird could carry up to the equivalent of a modern Space Marine company, between 60 and 100 Space Marines. The Stormbird had missiles slung under both wings and a powerful cannon mounted on its nose. Stormbirds were piloted by two Space Marines sitting back to back along with two Servitors hardwired into the vessel. It is not known what a Stormbird actually looked like, yet early drawings of the Thunderhawk show organic, large, and Vertical Take-off and Landing (VTOL) capable Imperial landing craft dropping Space Marines on a target and it is assumed that the Stormbird looked much like these early pattern Thunderhawks, only larger.

QuoteThe Warhawk VI dropship, commonly known as the Stormbird, was an assault and transport aircraft used by the Space Marine Legions during the Great Crusade, before the introduction of the smaller Thunderhawk pattern.

History
Capable of both void and atmospheric flight, the Stormbird was first manufactured on Terra, by the Yndonesic Bloc for use against the Panpacific tribes, during the Unification Wars. They were in use throughout the Great Crusade, although by the time of the Horus Heresy, most of the Legions had switched to the smaller, more agile Thunderhawk. The Luna Wolves were one of the few Legions that deliberately kept Stormbirds in service, since these ships had carried them into battle since the beginning. A Stormbird was piloted by two Marines sitting back-to-back, along with two hard-wired servitors.

During the Heresy, Nathaniel Garro, former Captain of the Death Guard Legion, used a Stormbird to travel to various planets, on the orders of Malcador the Sigillite. Like Garro's Power Armour, the ship bore no Legion insignia or colours, and was a uniform grey.

Since the Heresy, aging Stormbirds are still utilized by some Chaos Space Marine forces such as the Word Bearers

Sources:
Horus Rising by Dan Abnett
Garro: Oath of Moment by James Swallow
Garro: Legion of One by James Swallow
False Gods by Graham McNeil
Dark Disciple by Anthony Reynolds

Fan-made concept Art (link to Artists DA - http://armondikov.deviantart.com/)
(http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs45/f/2009/110/2/8/Stormbird_Concept_by_Armondikov.jpg) (http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/039/2/4/stormbird_concept_3_by_armondikov-d393iqi.jpg)

Supposed Artwork depicting Vehicle (Kindly supplied by Thantos)
(http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2012/168/9/5/dropship_1_by_narric_sb0-d53rtdw.jpg)

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That backstory done, so we're all on the same page, and for ease of referencing purposes, lets get this project underway.

I'll just put forward my initial thoughts. Feel free to blast whatever you don't like :P

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Stormbird                               600Points/Model

	Cost	Front	Side	Rear	Bs
Stormbird	600	12	12	11	4

Unit Composition:            1 Stormbird Unit Type: Vehicle (Skimmer, Tank) Flyer* Structure Points 6

Wargear: 1 Turbo Laser Main Cannon (Hull mounted) 6 Twin-linked Heavy Bolters (Sponson mounted) 2 twin-linked Hydra Autcannons (Turret mounted) Ceramite Plating Special rules:            Orbital Lander Deep Strike Assault Vehicle Power of the Machine Spirit Capacity:            Sixty Power Armour Models and/or Two Walkers/Monstrous Creatures No Vehicles

Access: 1 Forward Ramp 4 Side Doors Options: May be upgrade to carry up to 5 Dreadnoughts or Monstrous Creatures, for 55pts. It may no longer carry non-Walker or Monstrous Creature units *In games of Apocalypse, The Stormbird is treated as a Flyer with a Hover Mode

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Well chaps, I've laid down some ground work, lets see what we build.

That AA turrent is essentially the thing mounted on a Hydra is it not? 2 Long barreled Autocannons?

It could use the Orbital Lander rule if that is still a thing.

And the main cannon, possibly a Turbo Laser?

Id say it could carry more than a single Dreadnough/MC too. The Storm Raven can carry 10 men AND a Dread and that is tiny by comparison.

40 infanty or 4 Dreads/MC or any mix of these (Dreadnought taking up 10 infantry spots)

Quote from: The Primarch They Call Magnus on June 16, 2012, 10:28:04 AM
That AA turrent is essentially the thing mounted on a Hydra is it not? 2 Long barreled Autocannons?

Considering the size of the Stormbird, it wouldn't be suprsing if it was the AA Turret

QuoteIt could use the Orbital Lander rule if that is still a thing.

I don't know that rule. I assume if I just slot that in, everybody else will understand it?

QuoteAnd the main cannon, possibly a Turbo Laser?

See above.

QuoteId say it could carry more than a single Dreadnough/MC too. The Storm Raven can carry 10 men AND a Dread and that is tiny by comparison.

40 infanty or 4 Dreads/MC or any mix of these (Dreadnought taking up 10 infantry spots)

40 models and/or 4 Dreadnoughts/Monstrous Creatures? You can garauntee a Grey Knights player will abuse this.

I'd say 2 Dreads or MCs. To try and balance it somehow. 3 if 2 is a hamstring.

thanks for the input Magnus :D

[edit]
Just had a quick brainstorm to allow it to be upgraded to carry solely Dreadnoughts and Monstrous Creatures. For a cost.

As I remember it, the Orbital Lander rule allows you to come in as a flyer, land for a turn to allow the desired units to leave, and then take of again next turn. Its pretty essential for having units that distribute other units about the place.

Of course it may not be in place anymore, I havnt read the latest Apoc rules. :)

Ok, thats slotted in, as well as "Deep Strike," "Assault Vehicle," and "Power of the Machine Spirit"

What can you tell me about the Turbo Laser? should I look at a LAscannon as a basis, then ramp-up?

Umm, cant really give out the stats, but its better than S10. Falls just short of a Railgun in terms of AP and could reach across a standard 40k table.

Also, as a Super Heavy it shuld have at least 2 structure points, although we may need to increase the cost to balance all this out. maybe 550 all told.

Quote from: The Primarch They Call Magnus on June 16, 2012, 12:22:21 PM
Umm, cant really give out the stats, but its better than S10. Falls just short of a Railgun in terms of AP and could reach across a standard 40k table.

I got'ya :P

QuoteAlso, as a Super Heavy it shuld have at least 2 structure points, although we may need to increase the cost to balance all this out. maybe 550 all told.

JSYK, I haven't lood at Apocaslypse or Imperial armour rules at all (save experimental rules published on Forge World). So I will be going by what other people say in regards to Super Heavy rules/info.

I assume we shall set this as a Vehicle (Flyer, Super Heavy) then?

[edit]
I seem to have messed up the table coding. If someone can help me fix that, it would be much appreciated.

Well, according to Horus Rising, the Stormbird can carry OVER Fifty Marines. So I'd have about sixty Marines worth within.

So, I'd start there. Also, rather than have it carry x amount of anything, I prefer the conversion system.

10 Marines = 10 Power Armoured Marines
5 Terminators = 10 Power Armoured Marines
1 Dreadnought = 10 Power Armoured Marines
1 Tank = 10 Power Armoured Marines
1 MC = 10 Power Armoured Marines
1 Land Raider = 20 Power Armoured Marines

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Well, the Stormbird apparently has hover thrusters, like a recently released Stormtalon model...

So, maybe some sort of Hover Strike rule?

That means this thing could carry THREE Landraiders. even the Thunderhawk Transporter only gets 1.

You mean something like the Valkrye rule that lets it stop counting as a flier and it just counts a s skimmer for as long as you like? That could work. That plus the additional capacity could bring us up to 600 points easily.

Quote from: Lupercal Declis on June 16, 2012, 04:21:36 PM
Well, according to Horus Rising, the Stormbird can carry OVER Fifty Marines. So I'd have about sixty Marines worth within.

So, I'd start there. Also, rather than have it carry x amount of anything, I prefer the conversion system.

10 Marines = 10 Power Armoured Marines
5 Terminators = 10 Power Armoured Marines
1 Dreadnought = 10 Power Armoured Marines
1 Tank = 10 Power Armoured Marines
1 MC = 10 Power Armoured Marines
1 Land Raider = 20 Power Armoured Marines

I assume this is something that would be explained in the vehicles "force section" rather then the "Army List" section :P

QuoteWell, the Stormbird apparently has hover thrusters, like a recently released Stormtalon model...

So, maybe some sort of Hover Strike rule?

I have that issue of WD, so should I just slot in the "Hover Strike" rule as written there? (not re-writting it, due to IP law stuff whatsit IDK)

Quote from: The Primarch They Call Magnus on June 16, 2012, 04:49:15 PM
That means this thing could carry THREE Landraiders. even the Thunderhawk Transporter only gets 1.

I think we should disallow anything bigger then a Rhino at this point. Also, model wise its not physically big enough to imply the ability to carry a Land Raider, let alone three.

QuoteYou mean something like the Valkrye rule that lets it stop counting as a flier and it just counts a s skimmer for as long as you like? That could work. That plus the additional capacity could bring us up to 600 points easily.

Is this the Imperial Armour rule, becuase I don't believe the IG has this. Its merely counted as a skimmer.

Yeah, you can find it in the PDF update of IA:1 assuming thats still floating about cyberspace.

I would say no vehicles at all. Walkers excluded obviously. The only things that can carry other transports are the Thunderhawk Transporter and the Tau Manta, which is alost 4 times the price we are talking about here.

I'll try and scrounge upa PDF of IA:1 update then.

Then after that I need to fix the darn unit entry in the first post.

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I think we should try and get as much of the forum into this. I was/am trying to make this a FORUM project, as opposed to something I personally want (:shifty:)

So heres is a first draft banner to advertise this project. please include in your sig.

[url=http://secondsphere.org/index.php/topic,148204.0.html][img]http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/168/f/6/stormbird_banner_by_narric_sb0-d53t9x6.png[/img][/url]

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[edit]
Managed to sort of the unit entry. It looks much better now.

Okay, initial thoughts:

• AV13 all round feels extreme - this is still a flyer, after all. AV12 is better, perhaps 12/12/11. Ceramite Plating is a must, since it's given as standard to all Space Marine vehicles now. ::)
• 2 Structure Points? A normal Thunderhawk has 3! You're looking at around 6 for this thing I'd reckon.
• Weapon wise, I like the idea of a nose mounted Turbo Laser / Battlecannon myself. :P

Quote from: Wargamer on June 16, 2012, 07:34:46 PM
Okay, initial thoughts:

• AV13 all round feels extreme - this is still a flyer, after all. AV12 is better, perhaps 12/12/11. Ceramite Plating is a must, since it's given as standard to all Space Marine vehicles now. ::)
• 2 Structure Points? A normal Thunderhawk has 3! You're looking at around 6 for this thing I'd reckon.
• Weapon wise, I like the idea of a nose mounted Turbo Laser / Battlecannon myself. :P

AV13 all round seemed suitable, but looking at IA Flyers, I can see how it would be OTT.

+4 Structure Points incoming :P

Awesome xD

Bear in mind, the Manta has 4 more Structure points but costs the same as 4 Baneblades. Costing is going become an issue. This thing is going to be expensive to field. We are in Reaver Titan territory now in terms of structure points, Approaching Warlord with (I think) has 8? Although im not certain.

Could easily add another 40-50 points per Structure Point. But thats just my thought on the matter.

If we are giving this thing a hover mode, is it going to be a fast skimmer or just a skimmer? To me, fast skimmer seems a bit much, its not going to be THAT agile at low speeds is it, which is what Fast Skimmer tends to suggest.

For something with 6 structure points, and all these bells and whistles, costing only 100 more than a baneblade makes it seem ridiculously cheap.

However, I must admit that this is the best looking Imperial flyer i have ever seen in my entire life! :D Almost makes me want to paint one myself lol.

I think that one must consider this to be a related article to the thunderhawk. if the thunderhawk can carry land raiders (still seems strange, but whatever)  then this thing should be able to carry them as well. after all, this is described as a larger precursor to the thunderhawk. in terms of physical size, infantry are one scale, vehicles are another, and vehicles are another, right? I mean, you can't actually fit 10 fire warriors in a devilfish can you?

on the issue of structure points, I can certainly say that it makes no sense for a larger version of the thunderhawk to have fewer structure points than it does. that said, twice as many seems excessive. wouldn't 4 structure points then be a logical amount for balancing purposes? I don't actually have the experience with apoc. to say, but to me, this makes sense.

if I'm not mistaken, the hover mode these things are supposed to have is similar to that which real life harriers and ospreys have, right? in that sense, it's really only as a means to allow them to fire more accurately on target, and to put more shots in one place. in that sense, there is no reason at all that it should be fast, and if anything it should actually be somewhat slow. this only complicates the rules either way, so I'll put my vote on the normal skimmer hover mode.

one final, and slightly off topic, question. I know that space marines are supposed to use the thunderhawk as their all purpose air support, but what about IG, and other non marine imperials? Do they only use thunderhawks too, or is there something else available to them?

Quote from: Alpha_Wolf on June 17, 2012, 03:42:17 AM
I think that one must consider this to be a related article to the thunderhawk. if the thunderhawk can carry land raiders (still seems strange, but whatever)  then this thing should be able to carry them as well. after all, this is described as a larger precursor to the thunderhawk. in terms of physical size, infantry are one scale, vehicles are another, and vehicles are another, right? I mean, you can't actually fit 10 fire warriors in a devilfish can you?

Difference between whether a Devilfish can carry 10 Fire Warriors and how a Thunderhawk can carry a Land Raider, is that there is an actual model showing a Thunderhawk (variant) carrying one.

None of the Transport vehicles, can technically carry the unit they're supposedly for, but we can put that down to the "Heroic" scale GW has set for Warhammer.

I can see the Stormbird carrying a Land Raider easily, but I wouldn't except it to carry 3. Remember, those Land Raiders also have a transport cap, so they could carry a unit aswell. Meaning a Stormbird carrying 3 LRs could also carry 45 Marines, or 30 Terminators. That is what I don't want to see.

If we're going to allow it to have aVehicle Transport cap, then that must be either/or with the Infantry/walker/MC transport cap. There should be no mix and match ebwteen the two, same as (from what I can tell) a Rhino or LR transporting Thunderhawk doesn't also have extra space to carry its normal cap of marines.

sorry if that was a bit ramblish. :(

Quoteon the issue of structure points, I can certainly say that it makes no sense for a larger version of the thunderhawk to have fewer structure points than it does. that said, twice as many seems excessive. wouldn't 4 structure points then be a logical amount for balancing purposes? I don't actually have the experience with apoc. to say, but to me, this makes sense.

I have no exp with Apoc either, so I'm going by what the majority says (so long as it makes sense to me)

Quoteif I'm not mistaken, the hover mode these things are supposed to have is similar to that which real life harriers and ospreys have, right? in that sense, it's really only as a means to allow them to fire more accurately on target, and to put more shots in one place. in that sense, there is no reason at all that it should be fast, and if anything it should actually be somewhat slow. this only complicates the rules either way, so I'll put my vote on the normal skimmer hover mode.

I've put it down as a Skimmer Tank for now, with Flyer with Hover Mode type for Apoc games. Hopefuly that works.

Quoteone final, and slightly off topic, question. I know that space marines are supposed to use the thunderhawk as their all purpose air support, but what about IG, and other non marine imperials? Do they only use thunderhawks too, or is there something else available to them?

My thoughts is that this would Imperial Navy, so IG would have access also. But in that vain, I don't believe it should special options depending on which army it is bought for. that can only lead to confusion.

Quote from: Narric on June 17, 2012, 06:20:40 PM

Quoteone final, and slightly off topic, question. I know that space marines are supposed to use the thunderhawk as their all purpose air support, but what about IG, and other non marine imperials? Do they only use thunderhawks too, or is there something else available to them?

My thoughts is that this would Imperial Navy, so IG would have access also. But in that vain, I don't believe it should special options depending on which army it is bought for. that can only lead to confusion.

I wasn't implying that, but just generally curious about IG air support vs. marine air support.

I agree that a transport carrying transports carring marines is ridiculous. I meant that it should be able to carry empty land raiders. wouldn't it be universally dangerous to do that anyway? even if the unit is purchased as a dedicated transport, it would have to be fastened into the vehicle so that only the crew are in it anyway, and so each transport should be forced to deploy seperatly of its unit.

Quote from: Alpha_Wolf on June 17, 2012, 10:35:26 PM

I agree that a transport carrying transports carring marines is ridiculous. I meant that it should be able to carry empty land raiders. wouldn't it be universally dangerous to do that anyway? even if the unit is purchased as a dedicated transport, it would have to be fastened into the vehicle so that only the crew are in it anyway, and so each transport should be forced to deploy seperatly of its unit.

IIRC, Blood Angels can Deepstrike land raiders with occupants inside. I know GW logic =/= actual logic, but on those grounds, you could make a claim that you could, in fact, carry occupied transports.

Also, slightly tangent, but doesn't this happen in Aliens? Two crew are flying the plane from the ship to ground level, all the other people are in an APC in the plane, ready to mobilise the second it lands.

Zambia

Looking over the Blood Angels fluff for their Deep Striking Land Raiders, they achieve it by saying a Thunderhawk carries the LR into the battlefield and either land and releases, or releases it still in flight.

This bit of fluff actually caused a gamer at my LGS to state that he should get a free Thunderhawk with every Land Raider he fielded :P

In terms on Xeno similarities, I'd like it if you gave some examples for me to check over.

The Manta can carry 4 Devilfish, and I think they can be occupied.

The important point to remember is that you have to pay for it. So you are talking Stormbird at 600, 2(?) Landraiders at a further 500(ish) plus 2 units of PA Marines or Terminators at a further 400(ish)

And if the Stormbird gets shot down before you have dropped off your stuff, I think the Apod rules state you automatically lose the vehicles and occupants.

Quote from: The Primarch They Call Magnus on June 18, 2012, 09:14:30 AM
The Manta can carry 4 Devilfish, and I think they can be occupied.

The important point to remember is that you have to pay for it. So you are talking Stormbird at 600, 2(?) Landraiders at a further 500(ish) plus 2 units of PA Marines or Terminators at a further 400(ish)

And if the Stormbird gets shot down before you have dropped off your stuff, I think the Apod rules state you automatically lose the vehicles and occupants.

I guess thats fair?

How would we word the Transport Capacity then?

Well, we could look at it this way:

Stormbird - 600
Dreadnought/MC Mod - +55
Vehicle Mod - +100

Stormbird can carry up to 2 Landraiders or 3 Rhino Chassis Vehicles. The vehicle may carry units as specified in their unit entries in their respective Codecies.

If the StormBird is modded to carry a different unit type, it may ONLY carry that unit type.

Quote from: The Primarch They Call Magnus on June 18, 2012, 10:41:44 AM
Well, we could look at it this way:

Stormbird - 600
Dreadnought/MC Mod - +55
Vehicle Mod - +100

Stormbird can carry up to 2 Landraiders or 3 Rhino Chassis Vehicles. The vehicle may carry units as specified in their unit entries in their respective Codecies.

If the StormBird is modded to carry a different unit type, it may ONLY carry that unit type.

hmm, so something like this:

Transport Capacity

• Sixty Models and/or Two Dreadnought/Monstrous Creatures
• For +55pts, it may carry five Dreadnoughts/Monstrous Creatures, but loses the capacity to carry regular models
• For +100pts it may carry up to two Land Raiders, or three Rhino Chasis or Chimera chasis vehicles. It loses to the ability to carry regular models and Dreadnoughts/monstrous Creatures, but Dedicated Transports may carry their units, whilst being carried by the Stormbird.

Sound good?

Not sure about the Chimera Chassis option. It's a Space Marine unit. The IG have the Sky Talon dont they.

Quote from: The Primarch They Call Magnus on June 18, 2012, 12:27:02 PM
Not sure about the Chimera Chassis option. It's a Space Marine unit. The IG have the Sky Talon dont they.

The Sky Talon seems solely an Ellysian speiclal vehicle, rather then a general IG vehicle transporter.

I was also trying to make it seem like this WASN'T another Space Marine exclusive unit. They have enough toys.

And before anyone starts, if I find some fan-made concept art of a vehicle for a Xenos race, that doesn't have rules. I'd more then happily try and create rules for it, as another forum project similar to this one.

Quote from: Narric on June 18, 2012, 04:45:28 PM
And before anyone starts, if I find some fan-made concept art of a vehicle for a Xenos race, that doesn't have rules. I'd more then happily try and create rules for it, as another forum project similar to this one.

lets include creatures in this because 'nids don't really have vehicles. though I agree that marines have enough cool toys, the guard have an entire navy of their own. and this vehicle especially was supposed to be a marine exclusive vehicle.

OK chaps, a small bump to remind you all of this.

I'm going to be trying to get some off-site help. I'm both featuring it on my blog, and tomorrow I am taking a print out copy of the current rules with me to my LGS to get some new ideas in the mix.

Also, there may be some changes needed to be done, as these rulese were written for 5th Edition. Yes, we/I wrote them for compatibilty with 6th, but i think some of these changes were not entirely expected, so changes to our rules may need to be done.

Lets keep this going :D

Your post had some weird formatting errors (ie: table tabs outside of your post! :o). I edited it to see if that fixed the bug, which it did (for me at least). Just so you know. ;)

I'll have to get a copy of the 6th rules and learn them a bit better before commenting on rules and such.

Thanks Wargamer. I think my editing skills need a revisit :P

This thread needs some life :P

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I've been considering the armament of the Gunship recently. Giving it a decent loadout to egin with is cool and all, but most of the time you'll be changing you strategy to fit the amrments (and cost) of the Gunship, rather then mix/matching the armaments of the Gunship to suit your army/strategy. So I wrote up a quick idea on options for it.

Another things I've been thinking about is the main gun. My main problam is I have no clue whats the profile of a "Turbo Laser Cannon" is, sdo I figured using some pre-written weapons would be a better option.

So here is my slightly updated rules for the gunship.

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Stormbird Gunship                               700 Points/Model

	Cost	Front	Side	Rear	Bs	Hull Points
Stormbird	700	13	12	11	4	6

Unit Composition:            1 Stormbird Unit Type: Flyer, Hover

Wargear: 1 Macro Cannon 4 Twin-linked Heavy Bolters 2 Twin-linked Hydra Autocannons Microglance Plating Capacity:            Sixty (60) Armoured Models and/or two Monstrous Creature/Walkers No non-walker vehicles

Access:

• 1 Forward Ramp
• 4 Side Doors

Options:

• May be upgraded to carry up to 5 Monstrous Creatures/Dreadnoughts, for 55pts. It may no longer carry non-walker or non-Monstrous Creature units.
• May replace its Macro Cannon for the following:
  - Icarus Lascannon..............25pts
  - Turbo Laser Cannon..........60pts
  - Battle Cannon...................70pts
  - Vulcan Mega Bolter............90pts
  
• May replace each pair of Twin-linked Heavy Bolters (Front or wing pair) with one pair of the following:
  -   Twin-linked Assault Cannon.....free
  -   Quad-gun..............................10pts
  -   Flamestorm Cannon...............20pts
  -   Twin-linked Multi-Melta...........25pts
  -   Twin-linked Lascannon...........30pts
  

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Pick ito it, all you like :)

Whats the rear armor supposed to be Narric?  I am assuming that its a typo?

Also, your points are way off. A Battlecannon is worth far more than an Icarus Lascannon, and both of them are almost certainly worth less than a Mega-bolter (it's a Titan weapon for god's sake!).

The Turbo-laser is essentially a more powerful Lascannon with better range and "Ordnance 1", not Heavy 1.

OK, swapped weapon options around, and fixed the typo for Rear Armour.

Also, i forget to include some info for the Microglance Plating. Its next step up from Ceramite Plating. Its bonus involves  save against Glancing hits, possibly 5+ or 6+. I'd justify this becuase in my mind this gunship would also find use in high/low orbit gunfights, and it be pretty lame if it was taken out by something like a stray skywould bullet, or a micro-meterite. I was thinking of something else as part of it, which entailed a chance that a weapon system would be damaged by the stray shot being glanced off.

90 points to replace a Vulcan Mega Bolter with a Vulcan Mega Bolter? Might want to fix that typo lol.

Still don't think a single Icarus lascannon is worth that many points.

Narric, I don't want to sound rude, but maybe you should stop posting points for things you clearly know nothing about.

A Macro-cannon is a truly brutal weapon. It is not a slightly-better version of the Autocannon as you seem to believe it is. A single macro-cannon can all but wipe out an Ork Horde, and it'll probably blow a smoking hole through a Space Marine squad as well simply by the sheer number of wounds it can potentially inflict.

It is worth far more than an Icarus Lascannon (and why the hell is the Stormbird armed with an anti-aircraft gun as its main anti-ground weapon?), but there's no way in hell a Battlecannon is worth 70pts more than a Macro-cannon. Even 7 is probably pushing it.

Microglance plating... the name is clunky, and the mechanics are questionable. The Stormbird is already packing six Structure Points, so trying to glance it to death is an exercise in futility. It does not need a handwaved rule to protect it even further.

Quote from: Wargamer on September 01, 2012, 12:43:23 PM
Narric, I don't want to sound rude, but maybe you should stop posting points for things you clearly know nothing about.

A Macro-cannon is a truly brutal weapon. It is not a slightly-better version of the Autocannon as you seem to believe it is. A single macro-cannon can all but wipe out an Ork Horde, and it'll probably blow a smoking hole through a Space Marine squad as well simply by the sheer number of wounds it can potentially inflict.

It is worth far more than an Icarus Lascannon (and why the hell is the Stormbird armed with an anti-aircraft gun as its main anti-ground weapon?), but there's no way in hell a Battlecannon is worth 70pts more than a Macro-cannon. Even 7 is probably pushing it.

Microglance plating... the name is clunky, and the mechanics are questionable. The Stormbird is already packing six Structure Points, so trying to glance it to death is an exercise in futility. It does not need a handwaved rule to protect it even further.

Then perhaps someone who knows the necessary info should take over this project. I'm trying to make something that looks absolutely awesome in artwork usable in game.

The Microglance Plating was something I thought up to help with the whole "Galncing hits can now take out a Land Raider" though I didn't want to flat out ignore Glancing hits, but at least give the controlling player a chance to negate them.

Also, I put HULL points. If you are adament this should be apocalypse only, then I can't work on it anymore effectively as I don't play, nor truly intend to play, Apocalypse.

You're insane if you think the Stormbird has any place outside of Apocalypse. Hell, it shouldn't even be in Apocalypse - it belongs in Epic!

Glancing Hits killing Land Raiders? What's wrong with that? Anyone who has a problem with that is clearly some bitchy, self-entitled Marine player who wants to win just by putting his army on the table. Marines already get too much their own way; they don't deserve any more beardy rules to bypass the core rules that inconvenience them.

If it belongs in Epic Wargamer, why is it I've found a different set of rules for it?

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-yoC0RWuSlIk/T23ZSVvxn8I/AAAAAAAAEo8/0CDk_ScgI-A/s1600/stormbird.jpg)

Source:
http://bloodofkittens.com/40kblogs/2012/03/24/autumn-of-flyers-storm-hawk/
http://natfka.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/autumn-of-flyers-storm-bird.html#more

Neither of those look official...

Some people are retarded enough to write rules for the Imperator Titan in 40K scale. Hell, GW even got requests for Titan rules in Inquisitor.

Units like the Storm Bird don't belong in 40K. They belong in Epic - a game system that was built around having lots of massive, army-crushing units, and uses a model scale that allows you to play those games without having to use a parking lot.

Basically, I suppose if you're going to stat a Stormbird for 40k scale it should be an Apocalypse-only datasheet rather than a 'regular 40k' superheavy. Wargamer isn't a big fan of Apocalypse either, but, well, that's the sort of thing Apocalypse was made for.

Quote from: Wargamer on October 02, 2012, 09:39:18 AM
Units like the Storm Bird don't belong in 40K. They belong in Epic - a game system that was built around having lots of massive, army-crushing units, and uses a model scale that allows you to play those games without having to use a parking lot.

Quote from: Lord Sotek on October 02, 2012, 02:18:54 PM
Basically, I suppose if you're going to stat a Stormbird for 40k scale it should be an Apocalypse-only datasheet rather than a 'regular 40k' superheavy. Wargamer isn't a big fan of Apocalypse either, but, well, that's the sort of thing Apocalypse was made for.

You mean like the Manta?

Yeah, I wouldn't seriously field that in a non-Apoc/Epic/BFG environment, either.