Dear All,
Someone had to start this thread I suppose.
Sixth has a lot of new changes, and although the rules are good, there are issues with... interpretation.
This thread is for Q&A for people who need help with basic 6th Ed. issues.
I've played a few games, and now, I've got questions.
Answers would be helpful :)
1. Can you assault from a non-assault transport? (i.e. something that is not open-topped or assault ramp carrier)
- I've been looking through the book, but it seems to indicate that even if the vehicle was STANDING still, you cannot get out and assault. If this is true well... it's a harsh kind of thing to try and get in on people now...
2. Who can operate fortification weapons?
- There's not much of a note for them, but can my BS5 Klaivex (or my BS7 Archon) use the Quad-Gun if he feels like it? If so, that's really... awesome and potentially abusable.
3. At what phase do you use the non-shooting psychic powers?
Is it like with Eldar where you can only use them at the start of the turn or is it at any point during the turn?
Thanks all!
Best,
-BT
Well, I've only had a quick look through a friend's copy but I can answer question 1 for you. It seems that you can not assault from a vehicle without the Assault Vehicle rule, regardless of how far it has moved. However, it also seems to be the case that you can move 6" after disembarking, even if the vehicle moved 12".
Which leads me to my question: If an assault vehicle moves 12" and the squad disembarks, can the unit then charge?
Well I can definitely answer the first two.
Page 79 - Disembarking Restrictions, it specifically states that the unit cannot declare a charge in the subsequent phase. But at least you can from open-topped transports ie. basically everything Orks and Dark Eldar have so you won't have it too badly BT.
For the second one;
Page 105 - Gun Emplacement, it says that a model in base contact fires it instead of one of its own weapons, plus the statline does not include a BS stat so it can't fire on its own.
Not sure about the last one, I don't suppose it says in the codex does it? That would have priority anyway.
EDIT: and for you Russ, Page 79 - Disembarking, a unit cannot disembark if the vehicle moved more than 6"
Quote from: Cammerz on July 02, 2012, 11:02:21 PM
EDIT: and for you Russ, Page 79 - Disembarking, a unit cannot disembark if the vehicle moved more than 6"
No exceptions for fast vehicles then? That's interesting. That's very interesting.
Ah BT, I may have just found the answer to your third question too.
Page 68 - Types of Psychic Powers
As long as you know what type of power it is then it'll tell you when you use it. It also says that if it doesn't mention a type then the rules for using it will clearly be visible in the entry for said power.
Thanks Cammerz.
Have you tried sixth yet?
Anything you've found as odd?
Best,
-BT
I haven't had a game yet, I'm home from uni for the summer so I don't have much of an opportunity. I'll see if I can remedy that but in the mean time I'll just find the answers to questions that other people have about 6th.
I love the psycick disiplines (just wanted to put that out there> a little random)
For me the WTF would be the 'Look Out sir!' and Ork Nobs biker squads. Apparently they can bromance each other really hard. They are coming back in force.
Oh and the doubling of FOC when you reach 2k.
Being able to double FOC was in fourth. Just no one used it so it's odd it's made a come back. I remember playing with it a bit for my tau for a while.
Just got my rulebook this evening, and I'm slowly going through it.
One thing that just popped out to me was the RAW for the Specialist Weapon USR. Though the fluff mentions that weapons need to be wielded in pairs to reach their full potential, the actual rules only require that both weapons have the Specialist Weapon USR to gain an extra attack. This implies a Power Fist and Lightning Claw wielding model could gain +1 to his attacks with whichever weapon he chooses to use.
Aside from the obvious RAI, am I missing something?
I think the major WTF for me comes with the layout of the book.
Im not a big fan with how the rules are set out, finding it difficult to find what i want without having to look in the index all the time.
By this i mean the rulebook don't lead you through the game.
I was just reading some of the 6th edition codex, and was wondering how some things work, etc.
Over watch brings up some questions:
1. Will twin-linked weapons work with over watch.
2. Eldar fortune on a group of guardians would it work on that.
I also noticed that armies like Daemons received a big buff:
1. Now flying monstrous creature will only be hit on a 6. My question can you deep strike in and receive that bonus. If so Fate weaver would be really good since you can't assault and it can just fly around shooting every one.
2. Now some creatures can double their strength and instant kill when need be.
3. Leadership checks while the enemy is still engaged.
I think the biggest hit is toward land raiders. Now with 4 hull points if I glance it 4 times it is wreaked if I get that right.
Another big hit is power weapons. It was one of the ways you can bring down terminators. Now +2 Armour is much stronger in melee. Honestly I think melee has been weaken over all anyway.
I think a big plus is that plasma weapons are more deadlier against tanks. Also with over watch it seems plasma weapons or much better. With Tau in mind I have to re look at marker lights since you might make your bs 1 into bs 5 with plasma suits. I'm not sure it's durable or not. If so marker lighting a squad that can charge you would be an awesome ideal where you get an extra barrage of free hits.
The lay out of the book seems hard to follow, but so far if you read one rule than it is assumed you know it. Example is deep striking, instead of saying 2d6 it says scatter. If you look up scatter it is described as a 2d6 roll. The way it's structured you have to look up the meaning of the terms to understand the rules.
I think it is stated that you cannot use Markerlights in Overwatch. As for twinlinked, as far as I know it does work as it is a rule that that weapon/unit has.
Markerlights, as far as I can tell, cannot shoot Seekers as part of an Overwatch, nor can they effectively boost the BS of Overwatch shooting (due to the way characteristic variables interact). That still leaves Networked Markerlights the ability to reduce Cover saves and decrease leadership tests for Pinning.
Could you elaborate on the Bs thing. The only thing ive read so far is that you cannot fire a seeker missile off during overwatch but have seen no indication that one cannot fire a marker itself or use it for any other purpose.
Even if marker lights can shoot it would not work as +1BS is overridden by overwatch. The same reason target arrays do not work.
I also think long range tanks are harder to kill now. Pre measuring means you can much easier stay outside enemy weapon range and you only need 25% of the tank behind a building to get cover which can be as good as 3+. Short range tanks on the other hand die much faster.
Quote from: Soundwave on July 10, 2012, 03:10:25 PM
Could you elaborate on the Bs thing. The only thing ive read so far is that you cannot fire a seeker missile off during overwatch but have seen no indication that one cannot fire a marker itself or use it for any other purpose.
That's what I got out of it too. Still doing a lot of reading to get up to speed.
Quote from: Soundwave on July 10, 2012, 03:10:25 PM
Could you elaborate on the Bs thing. The only thing ive read so far is that you cannot fire a seeker missile off during overwatch but have seen no indication that one cannot fire a marker itself or use it for any other purpose.
The issue with raising the BS with Markerlights is due to the order of operations when considering modifications to characteristics. First, you multiply. Next, you make any additions. Finally, you set the characteristics to any absolute value.
Snap Shots, the sort of shooting attack one does for Overwatch, is always made at BS 1, and thus falls into the third category and, consequently, the last step. Any Markerlight boosts would have occurred in the second step, and been wiped out.
Now, there is no restriction on the negation of cover saves, the lowering of Pinning tests, and the negation of Night Fighting penalties. This means that any Markerlight hits can be used for these purposes.
HOWEVER, as stated in the Markerlight entries in our codex, ONLY networked Markerlights are able to be used by the unit that produces it. This means that, for any unit with a non-networked Markerlight (An upgraded Shas'ui Fire Warrior could be a good example), though they could fire the markerlight, their unit could NOT utilize that ML Counter in any way. They are proscribed by the codex's Markerlight entry.
Due to all Shooting being simultaneous, I'm fairly certain even a second squad (in the case of a Multiple Charge) would similarly be proscribed... but I haven't read it in enough detail to be sure.
Hope that answers the question!
Thanks! that explains it all quite nicely in just the format I like. Detailed. Most helpful :D
Little buff i have noticed. you can now assult out of a drop pod as it has the assult vehicle special rule.
What speed to Deep Striking vehicles count as moving in this addition?
Quote from: Tactical Genius on July 11, 2012, 10:06:24 AM
Little buff i have noticed. you can now assult out of a drop pod as it has the assult vehicle special rule.
Interesting point. If it counted as moving more than 6" you wouldn't be able to disembark. Going to have to look more closely at the drop pod rules I think.
Doesnt deepstrike count as cruising speed? ie, MORE than 6 inches?
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on July 11, 2012, 02:48:30 PM
Doesnt deepstrike count as cruising speed? ie, MORE than 6 inches?
That's what I thought. If that were the case though you wouldn't be able to disembark on the turn the drop pod lands.
So if that's all correct The turn they deepstrike they are still within the pod and their following player turn they can disembark, move, shoot, and assault?
Where as if they lacked the "assault" rule they would only get to disembark, move and shoot in that second turn?
Seem that way. Does vehicle destroyed still hurt those inside? Cause drop pods aren't hard to destroy.
Just confirmed with a friend of mine who has the rule book, the drop pod rules specifically state that a unit disembarks as soon as the drop pod lands but nothing can charge on the turn it arrives from reserves regardless of how it does so, unless it has the Heroic Intervention special rule.
That is incorrect. if you refer to the rules for the lucius pattern drop pod it states the turn it arrives from deepsrike states that the drop pod is an assult vehice and a model within it my assult the turn it arives from deepstrike. now with these new rules the regular drop pod now also has the assult vehicle special rule so surley they are the same?
The Lucius pattern is not the normal pattern. It is designed to get a Dread into enemy lines fast and Dreadnoughts can assault and shoot and so on all the time. The special rule on the Lucius is so they can still assault after deepstriking, which you normally cannot do. Unless the FAQ specifically states that you can assault on deepstrike from a normal Drop Pod, you can't.
Quote from: Tactical Genius on July 12, 2012, 07:51:42 PM
That is incorrect.
No unit can assault from reserves without the Heroic Intervention rule. That is fact. The Webway Portal, Outflank, Deep Strike, it doesn't matter how you do it, you can't charge.
I will do some more reading. However i think that what i am saying holds water. as both the lucius and regular drop pod now have the same special rule they must surly work the same way.
Quote from: Tactical Genius on July 12, 2012, 09:52:56 PM
I will do some more reading. However i think that what i am saying holds water. as both the lucius and regular drop pod now have the same special rule they must surly work the same way.
No they must not. If that's the case then my Wyches can now charge from a Raider when it Deep Strikes because it has the Assault Vehicle special rule. A unit could charge from a Land Raider if a commander is lucky enough to get Outflank as his trait. However this is NOT the case, therefore you can NOT charge from a Drop Pod the turn it lands. Unless you have the Heroic Intervention special rule.
I dont see any reason why any unit embarked on any :) assult vehicle cannont assult as that is the assult vehice special rule.
Quote from: Tactical Genius on July 12, 2012, 10:57:58 PM
I dont see any reason why any unit embarked on any :) assult vehicle cannont assult as that is the assult vehice special rule.
Normally they can, but this isn't normally. The reserves rules state that no charges, NONE, can be made after coming on from reserves, ie normal reserves, outflanking or DEEP STRIKING. A unit inside a drop pod counts as having deep struck, therefore the unit inside cannot assault. The exact same in the last edition.
Lucius pattern is different as it has a specific rule that says a unit inside can assault after deep striking, regular drop pods do no state this.
There a lots and lots of reasons for why you can't assault out of an assault vehicle. Like moving more then 6" (which a drop pod counts as doing). If you could assault out of an assault vehicle all of the time no matter what, my Dark Eldar raiders would move 12" then move flat out 18" and then I'd assault like crazy. Which would be stupid.
So in summary. You can't assault out of drop pods.
They deep strike. You disembark up to 6" (or it might be 3", they might just count it as a wreck for purposes of forced disembarkation). Then you can shoot or run. No charges allowed.
Quote from: Rej on July 12, 2012, 11:32:05 PM
They deep strike. You disembark up to 6" (or it might be 3", they might just count it as a wreck for purposes of forced disembarkation). Then you can shoot or run. No charges allowed.
It's a normal disembarkation, so they can move 6". It's forced, but it's not the same kind of forced disembarkation as the vehicle is not wrecked and that appears to be the only reason why it would half your disembark movement. This actually makes Drop Pods more reliable than they already were, as you can now safely place them in an area where the occupants are able to do the most damage without the risk of it flying off the board.
What I find is the biggest WTF is that Tau vehicles are now able to win a combat using their Flechette Dischargers. If nothing manages to damage them, and they wound models then the models may end up running away, because all vehicles are now able to win in Close Combat and I'm fairly sure those wounds would count towards combat res as they happen during an assault...... Right?
What I find is the biggest WTF is that Tau vehicles are now able to win a combat using their Flechette Dischargers. If nothing manages to damage them, and they wound models then the models may end up running away, because all vehicles are now able to win in Close Combat and I'm fairly sure those wounds would count towards combat res as they happen during an assault...... Right?[/quote]You are correct. Dark Eldar Envenomved Blades allow for a similar thing. Although they are much less likely to work because unlike Flechettes they're abhorrently broken, but that's another topic. :P
I was just talking with some dudes in the store and we started talking about the barrel-rolling Monolith as I sparked the question; "How does a monolith jink if the fluff says that it is an indominable vehicle?"
My biggest 6th Ed WTF was just how obvious it is that GW care nothing for balance at all with their new flyer rules. Now I am not somebody that usually complains about anything being broken or about balance, I play in a competative environment so Im used to seeing broken combos etc and dont really care but the new rules totally invalidated so many armies because of one thing:
Flyers
All GW had to do to make the game fair was include minor anti flyer measures in the FAQ's they released. All Missiles get Flak Fire rounds, Tau Seeker Missiles are anti air, Hive Guard can fire 1 shot each instead of 2 in order to hit flyers at normal BS. The rest is ok as GK, BA, Necrons, Guard all have their own good flyers anyway, Orks get lootas. Thats all they needed to do and it is very clear that they didn't, simply because they know people HAVE to buy flyers to stay competative. The other reason they didnt is so that people without a good grasp of the rules would go and buy fortifications or defense lines with the gun platforms as their anti flyer options [which doesnt work as they are T7 2 wound models that will be dead turn 1 before any flyers arrive anyway, if you could join a unit to them and make them count as an artillery piece that would work fine, but you cant].
So they have totally ruined game balance on purpose. Of course once flyer sales go through the roof, everyone will start getting very effective anti flyer [everyone gets Flak Missiles in an FAQ or something].
The measures some armies have to go to just to get slight and not even very effective anti air is stupid. Nids can do it well if they take as many psykers as they can and give them all extra powers and hope to roll as many 'puppet master' results as possible. All I have for my Wolves is to take Njal and hope to get lucky with his whole storm thing.
The whole ally thing doesnt help either unless you take 3 Vendettas as any single ally flyer will be outclassed by your opponent having at least 3 flyers. Hydras dont work because flyers just kill them on the turn they come on.
Pretty frustrating, im not going to buy any flyers for about a year untill the metagame really settles down and we see how they stand with later FAQ's and Codex.
Maybe somebody can explain this one to me. I'm reading over the description of Beasts, and it says they are never slowed by difficult terrain, even when charging. Fair enough, but why the heck give them Move Through Cover? Is it so you can attach an IC to a squad of Beasts (or an IC Beast to a regular one if such a thing exists) and give Move Through Cover to the non-beasts?
Quote from: knightperson on July 26, 2012, 03:46:03 PM
Maybe somebody can explain this one to me. I'm reading over the description of Beasts, and it says they are never slowed by difficult terrain, even when charging. Fair enough, but why the heck give them Move Through Cover? Is it so you can attach an IC to a squad of Beasts (or an IC Beast to a regular one if such a thing exists) and give Move Through Cover to the non-beasts?
The 'Move Through Cover' special rule specifically states that it has no effect on charge range rolls, the description of Beasts says that they can move through that terrain even when charging, so there is a slight difference which makes it better for them.
Quote from: Cammerz on July 26, 2012, 06:22:33 PM
Quote from: knightperson on July 26, 2012, 03:46:03 PM
Maybe somebody can explain this one to me. I'm reading over the description of Beasts, and it says they are never slowed by difficult terrain, even when charging. Fair enough, but why the heck give them Move Through Cover? Is it so you can attach an IC to a squad of Beasts (or an IC Beast to a regular one if such a thing exists) and give Move Through Cover to the non-beasts?
The 'Move Through Cover' special rule specifically states that it has no effect on charge range rolls, the description of Beasts says that they can move through that terrain even when charging, so there is a slight difference which makes it better for them.
If their "move full distance without being slowed by terrain" was only in the assault phase, then Move Through Cover would make sense. However, doesn't the rulebook say they are not slowed by difficult terrain
even when charging? That says to me that they're not slowed by terrain in the movement phase either. Since they're not slowed by terrain in the movement phase, what the heck is the point of Move Through Cover???
Quote from: knightperson on July 26, 2012, 06:39:50 PM
Quote from: Cammerz on July 26, 2012, 06:22:33 PM
Quote from: knightperson on July 26, 2012, 03:46:03 PM
Maybe somebody can explain this one to me. I'm reading over the description of Beasts, and it says they are never slowed by difficult terrain, even when charging. Fair enough, but why the heck give them Move Through Cover? Is it so you can attach an IC to a squad of Beasts (or an IC Beast to a regular one if such a thing exists) and give Move Through Cover to the non-beasts?
The 'Move Through Cover' special rule specifically states that it has no effect on charge range rolls, the description of Beasts says that they can move through that terrain even when charging, so there is a slight difference which makes it better for them.
If their "move full distance without being slowed by terrain" was only in the assault phase, then Move Through Cover would make sense. However, doesn't the rulebook say they are not slowed by difficult terrain even when charging? That says to me that they're not slowed by terrain in the movement phase either. Since they're not slowed by terrain in the movement phase, what the heck is the point of Move Through Cover???
Move through cover essentially gives them the ability to automatically pass Dangerous terrain tests. This means that if there is a dangerous terrain between them an their target, they will be able to go full speed ahead without worrying about the dangerous terrain at all. IF it is any other unit, they will have to take a dangerous terrain test to get through that terrain. That's the only reason why the beasts have Move through Cover.
Read every part of the rules properly and it will explain itself.
Move Through Cover means auto-pass dangerous terrain? I wonder how I missed that! I must have been more tired than I thought when I read that rule.
Quote from: knightperson on July 26, 2012, 07:05:42 PM
Move Through Cover means auto-pass dangerous terrain? I wonder how I missed that! I must have been more tired than I thought when I read that rule.
Move Through Cover as described by the rulebook on pg 40;
Quote
A unit that is at least one model with this special rule rolls and extra D6 when rolling to move through difficult terrain. In most circumstances , this will mean that the unit rolls 3D6s and picks the highest roll. Furthermore, a model with Move Through Cover special rule automatically passes Dangerous Terain tests. The Move Through Cover special rule has ho effect on charge range rolls or Impact tests.
I discovered this WTF as I was looking over what was a character. At first I thought characters was just your traditional Special Character like The Avatar of Khaine, but I looked over the army listings and realise that almost all upgraded models is a character. The typical Shas and a seargent are both characters. At first I said so what, but then I saw that you allocate wounds to whatever modle you want if you roll a 6 to hit. Also chalenging is also a downer.
1. Let's say you take a Shas'o with body guard with plasma and missle pods. Within rapid fire range on average you can allocate 1 plasma shot and 1 missle shot to whom ever you like. If you going against chaos it would be nice to allocate the plasma shot towards the icon bearer, missle launcher, etc. Although it would hard t be able to snipe a character with them taking wounds off them and placing them on other models that's within 6".
2. Another thing I noticed is units like wolfguard and paladins happen to be all characers. This being the case they can move wounds around the squad almost like having differant models in the squad in 5th. So instead of making models differant just stuff the unit wit as many characters as possible like nobs.
3. Characters can now challenge each other. In some ways it is good and bad. Like say the Avatar of Khaine is about to charge a squad of marines with a power fist seargent. With a challenge you can isolate the power fist guy from the rest of the squad, kill him, and finish off the squad the next turn. The problem with this is if the Avatar assaults a palladin squad. In essence he could get bogged down solo fighting each model for the rest of the game. It makes sense for the Avatar in the beginning to solo out models to get rid of the most threating models. The problem is when you reduce the squad to 3 models you might want to fight them as a whole, but than they will challenge the Avatar to keep him tied up for 3 combat rounds instead of 1-2.
The character aspect changes a lot of dynamics in game play. For example it might make more sense to take a jester and master in a Harliquin squad now to prevent a challenge towards your shadow seer. Although squads like Paladins have so many characters they could challenge your characters to prevent and isolate your Harliquin damage.
It's exactly this that is making Nob Bikers so dangerous IMO. They are all characters, and so can all benefit from Look Out Sir! So even though wound allocation is gone, they can still do it.
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on July 31, 2012, 06:11:42 AM
It's exactly this that is making Nob Bikers so dangerous IMO. They are all characters, and so can all benefit from Look Out Sir! So even though wound allocation is gone, they can still do it.
Yep. Paladins are exactly the same for Grey Knights. Because they needed a power boost, honest. ::) However Wolf Guard are only characters if they're split up and Tyranid Warriors aren't characters at all, so how they've decided who is and who isn't I don't know. :-\
Quote from: Warmaster Russ on July 31, 2012, 06:14:56 AM
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on July 31, 2012, 06:11:42 AM
It's exactly this that is making Nob Bikers so dangerous IMO. They are all characters, and so can all benefit from Look Out Sir! So even though wound allocation is gone, they can still do it.
Yep. Paladins are exactly the same for Grey Knights. Because they needed a power boost, honest. ::) However Wolf Guard are only characters if they're split up and Tyranid Warriors aren't characters at all, so how they've decided who is and who isn't I don't know. :-\
Do not forget that Halbreds give them +1 strength with +2 int. With hammerhand they hitting at str 6, but with a libby they can hit at str 7 now at int 6. Yes they are now worst than before since all you have to do is give them all Halbreds and allocate away as characters.
Not to mention Halbreds are also ap 2. :facepalm001:
Quote from: Chicop76 on July 31, 2012, 12:11:22 AM
1. Let's say you take a Shas'o with body guard with plasma and missle pods. Within rapid fire range on average you can allocate 1 plasma shot and 1 missle shot to whom ever you like. If you going against chaos it would be nice to allocate the plasma shot towards the icon bearer, missle launcher, etc. Although it would hard t be able to snipe a character with them taking wounds off them and placing them on other models that's within 6".
I'd like to point out that the "Roll a 6 to hit to snipe a particular model" only works if you have a model, or more likely he has a weapon, with the Sniper Special Rule. And Crisis Battlesuits don't have that USR.
Don't ICs also benefit from that rule?
Quote from: Cammerz on July 31, 2012, 07:19:57 AM
Quote from: Chicop76 on July 31, 2012, 12:11:22 AM
1. Let's say you take a Shas'o with body guard with plasma and missle pods. Within rapid fire range on average you can allocate 1 plasma shot and 1 missle shot to whom ever you like. If you going against chaos it would be nice to allocate the plasma shot towards the icon bearer, missle launcher, etc. Although it would hard t be able to snipe a character with them taking wounds off them and placing them on other models that's within 6".
I'd like to point out that the "Roll a 6 to hit to snipe a particular model" only works if you have a model, or more likely he has a weapon, with the Sniper Special Rule. And Crisis Battlesuits don't have that USR.
Nope, Rolls of 6 with characters when shooting and when in combat are allocated by the controlling player. Page 63, the Rules Precision Shots and Precision Strikes.
EDIT: I got Ninja'd.
Quote from: Tybalt Defet on July 31, 2012, 07:36:42 AM
Don't ICs also benefit from that rule?
All characters benefit from the rule.
Target Lock - This piece of wargear no longer helps Tau, go die horrible horrible deaths Tau players.
Why did they get rid of Target lock? Does anyone know of any reason for them to ditch maybe one of the few things that made Tau a more potent shooting force? I know that Tau shooting is good... but was it that game breaking that 1 of their guys could shoot at a different target?
Tau shooting was just above average. It has be raised a bit to acceptable. Target locks were great. Although the points I spent on those now go on BSFs all round. They are pretty much essential now.
Quote from: Matt1785 on July 31, 2012, 03:19:46 PM
Target Lock - This piece of wargear no longer helps Tau, go die horrible horrible deaths Tau players.
Why did they get rid of Target lock? Does anyone know of any reason for them to ditch maybe one of the few things that made Tau a more potent shooting force? I know that Tau shooting is good... but was it that game breaking that 1 of their guys could shoot at a different target?
I haven't heard a good explanation, especially when the Space Wolves, who aren't even all that shooty, can do it at least as well as Tau formerly could. My personal theory is that they gave the task of writing the new FAQs to somebody who didn't know Jack about how the Tau worked. This guy, whoever he is, glanced at the wargear, saw that Target Lock (for infantry) had the phrase Target Priority Test in it, asked somebody what that meant, and was told "that's an old rule that doesn't mean anything anymore." Hearing that, he wrote that the entire Target Lock didn't do anything. :facepalm001:
It better come back in some form in our rumoured New Codex.
I agree, Blacksun filters are a must in the new Edition, especially with tournaments seemingly just giving in and making all first turns a Night Fight scenario. I see 3x 2 Broadsides laying low all major contenders vehicle wise turn 1 while the darkness keeps them hidden from return fire.
I am still sorely dissapointed by the ruling though. As you said, Space Wolves being able to split even better sucks. 3 ML this way and 2 ML this way really is hard to swallow when we can't do anything with splitting anymore... although I will admit 6 TL S10 AP1 shots at 6 different targets is pretty damning with Night Vision! But it's still not game breaking once you reach them... Or maybe that is pretty good...
Quote from: Warmaster Russ on July 31, 2012, 06:14:56 AM
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on July 31, 2012, 06:11:42 AM
It's exactly this that is making Nob Bikers so dangerous IMO. They are all characters, and so can all benefit from Look Out Sir! So even though wound allocation is gone, they can still do it.
Yep. Paladins are exactly the same for Grey Knights. Because they needed a power boost, honest. ::) However Wolf Guard are only characters if they're split up and Tyranid Warriors aren't characters at all, so how they've decided who is and who isn't I don't know. :-\
If that's bad try normal nobs are characters but mega nobs are just infantry. :P
Also Paladins get beasted by TH/SS even more now. :P
- Will
Quote from: knightperson on July 31, 2012, 03:43:42 PM
Quote from: Matt1785 on July 31, 2012, 03:19:46 PM
Target Lock - This piece of wargear no longer helps Tau, go die horrible horrible deaths Tau players.
Why did they get rid of Target lock? Does anyone know of any reason for them to ditch maybe one of the few things that made Tau a more potent shooting force? I know that Tau shooting is good... but was it that game breaking that 1 of their guys could shoot at a different target?
I haven't heard a good explanation, especially when the Space Wolves, who aren't even all that shooty, can do it at least as well as Tau formerly could. My personal theory is that they gave the task of writing the new FAQs to somebody who didn't know Jack about how the Tau worked. This guy, whoever he is, glanced at the wargear, saw that Target Lock (for infantry) had the phrase Target Priority Test in it, asked somebody what that meant, and was told "that's an old rule that doesn't mean anything anymore." Hearing that, he wrote that the entire Target Lock didn't do anything. :facepalm001:
It better come back in some form in our rumoured New Codex.
Someone suggested that it was only for the Battlesuit, since that version is the only one on the reference page. Supposedly, this was to reduce Broadside advantages. However, since the
section referenced is
Armoury and all other single references state the other armories, it applies to all in the referenced section.
Why is it that the first round of Amendments tend to be so piss poor?
I think spotlights are a WTF too. Before you had to roll night fight to see the target and than illuminate it. Now all you do is shot first and than illuminate what ever target you like. The only bad side effect is you can not get a cover save when you do so. My problem is if you have a squad of Harlequins with a night seer heading down the middle of the board. All I have to do is put a light on them and no more cover save with or without night fight in place.
It doesn't really become an issue until you're going against an army like guard where almost every vehicle in the army have a spotlight. Although vehicles are much easier to kill it remains to be seen if mech guard is no longer viable. With that said I have in the past stunned 15 vehicles in the last edition doing my alpha strike.
Regarding moving vehciles, disembarking and then shooting- i beliive that disembarking (as embarking) is now up to 6" from the hull, which is pretty good! And my way of fluff-justifying the 'cannot assault from vehicles' (stationary or moving) is that non assault-vehicles usually have rear or side mounted entry points and are not large enough to quickly cram a load of peeps out all at the one time. Whereas with a Landraider or Stormraven- open the front hatch, roll up and chuck on the brakes- out they roll...
Also, Power weapons- i cant agree Chicop, for too long beating armour was a yes or no proposition- the current setup with differences, bonuses and modifiers is more like Second Ed but in a streamlined way.
Whilst I dont agree with Axes needing to be unwieldy (should just be -1 In IMO), I do agree with the Str Bonus. Looking to kit out some of my Sgts or Vets now with Axes and Meltabombs for some flexibility when dealing with Armour and MCs instead of just relying on a Fist. In some cases it may even come in cheaper, depending what squad it is.
Quote from: Tempest Six Two on August 01, 2012, 02:51:11 AM
Regarding moving vehciles, disembarking and then shooting- i beliive that disembarking (as embarking) is now up to 6" from the hull, which is pretty good! And my way of fluff-justifying the 'cannot assault from vehicles' (stationary or moving) is that non assault-vehicles usually have rear or side mounted entry points and are not large enough to quickly cram a load of peeps out all at the one time. Whereas with a Landraider or Stormraven- open the front hatch, roll up and chuck on the brakes- out they roll...
Also, Power weapons- i cant agree Chicop, for too long beating armour was a yes or no proposition- the current setup with differences, bonuses and modifiers is more like Second Ed but in a streamlined way.
Whilst I dont agree with Axes needing to be unwieldy (should just be -1 In IMO), I do agree with the Str Bonus. Looking to kit out some of my Sgts or Vets now with Axes and Meltabombs for some flexibility when dealing with Armour and MCs instead of just relying on a Fist. In some cases it may even come in cheaper, depending what squad it is.
I feel a bit indifferent about the power weapon bit. The problem I have is it changes a lot on several units. For example Paladins get a super buff and expect to see them striking at int 6 more than ever. While regular terminators get a raw deal. Assault terminators will be taken less for the slow weilding powerfist and encorage getting getting the storm shield more so and almost making power claw terminators almost nonusable. Units like Banshees will now take a back seat to Harliquins, etc. The ap 3 change hits a lot of melee armies hard and make the +2 save nastier in combat which some armies have to rely more on plasma weapons over melee weapons.
Paladins did not need a buff since they was op to begin with. I like specalising the weapons a bit more to make them less bland, but do it in a balancing way instead of buffing some armies and hurting some.
In retrospect the now chaos update helped fix the gap with most of khorne being ap 3 instead of 2. Even though screamers are much better than they use to be it is not the same as letters and crushers. Honestly speaking they are much better for what they cost.
Quote from: Tempest Six Two on August 01, 2012, 02:51:11 AM
Regarding moving vehciles, disembarking and then shooting- i beliive that disembarking (as embarking) is now up to 6" from the hull, which is pretty good!
Now the vehicle can't have moved more than 6" though, so the threat range is still the same (although there was the 2" disembarkation previously after the transport moved 12" making 14" just...) yet now with vehilces being more vulnerable to close combat attacks it certainly is useful to get your soldiers out in from of their transport sometimes... funny that it used to be the other way around. I think I prefer it this way but it's not really a huge difference.
Quote from: Chicop76 on July 31, 2012, 04:52:33 PM
I think spotlights are a WTF too. Before you had to roll night fight to see the target and than illuminate it. Now all you do is shot first and than illuminate what ever target you like. The only bad side effect is you can not get a cover save when you do so. My problem is if you have a squad of Harlequins with a night seer heading down the middle of the board. All I have to do is put a light on them and no more cover save with or without night fight in place.
I think you might have made a mistake Chicop, the searchlight rule I'm seeing in front of me says that a vehicle with a searchlight "can, after firing all of its weapons, choose to illuminate
its target with the searchlight" (my emphasis) not just anything. It also says that "Illuminated units gain no benefit from the Night Fighting special rule" not that they lose their cover saves full stop.
Walker shooting took a bit of a nerf. Before, you could unload with everything, no problem, no matter how far you moved (ordnance being the only exception). Now, if you move, only one is fully effective, the rest are Snap-Fired.
Could we be seeing more one-handed Dreadnoughts coming out? Or will they be platforms only?
Twin-Linked Snap-Fire will not take you very far...
Quote from: Charistoph on August 10, 2012, 04:25:31 PM
Walker shooting took a bit of a nerf. Before, you could unload with everything, no problem, no matter how far you moved (ordnance being the only exception). Now, if you move, only one is fully effective, the rest are Snap-Fired.
Could we be seeing more one-handed Dreadnoughts coming out? Or will they be platforms only?
Twin-Linked Snap-Fire will not take you very far...
My WTF is Venerable Dreadnaughts. I mean why bother taking them if they can shrug off badd effects, but still earn missing hull points. Venerable is now a wasted model to take.
Also units like my Soul Grinder took a hit. Before units like Genestealers could only glance it to death while being immune to rolls 2 and under. Now it losses hull points which means a lucky unit can kill it. Although I had stealers immobilize or weapon destroy my baby it was still alive. Now they can actually kill it.
Ugh, I am totally behind you on the Venerable Dread... unbelievable. I agree that the use of the dread is almost completely useless as who cares that you re-roll it? You still lost a hull point so you're still going to die.
So far I have been lucky that the hull point system hasn't really factored into my games, but overall I know that HP are sucking for some of the heavier vehicle armies... ugh.
Quote from: Matt1785 on August 10, 2012, 11:00:37 PM
Ugh, I am totally behind you on the Venerable Dread... unbelievable. I agree that the use of the dread is almost completely useless as who cares that you re-roll it? You still lost a hull point so you're still going to die.
So far I have been lucky that the hull point system hasn't really factored into my games, but overall I know that HP are sucking for some of the heavier vehicle armies... ugh.
The Close combat Dread is essentially nullified as a result of the fact that if the unit that they are charging can't hurt it in any way, they would be able to run away rather than being tarpitted against the Dread. As for the shooty dread, it still have its uses especially the Psyflemen.
I'm not sure though, to get away from a close combat dread you have to auto fail your retreat... which is dangerous unless you're a Marine or similar that don't care if you're swept up. I feel that Blood Angels dreads are still in good shape being AV13.
I suppose the Psyfleman is still good, but I just like getting my dread up close and personal.. which does not work well for me... not unless I can get the ironclad I suppose.. but then there is no long ranged shooting from it. I refuse to Psyfle up! Dang.
Here's a weird thing from the allies rules:
Allies of convenience and desperate allies count as enemies that can't be targetted is more or less what the rule says. This means, unless I'm mistaken, that if my Tau start to flee and I have a guard unit (allied) within 6", my Tau can't rally. If that's the case then it probably affects other things too, but I haven't looked into it.
Wont Bonding Knives fix that though?
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on August 22, 2012, 11:18:43 PM
Wont Bonding Knives fix that though?
That only lets you regroup whilst below half strength (unless they changed it in an errata)
Seeing a squad of Khorne berserkers fail a 3" charge in open terrain is probably my biggest WTF in 6th ed.
However overall my greatest WTF is from the over-abundance of flyers and the inability to deal with them with my armies. (aside from ignoring, which is hit or a miss)
Quote from: Warptide on August 22, 2012, 11:59:45 PM
However overall my greatest WTF is from the over-abundance of flyers and the inability to deal with them with my armies. (aside from ignoring, which is hit or a miss)
I'd like to point out that any army (even 'nids) can take fortifications, many of which allow the additional purchase of anti-air quad guns or icarus lascannons. So there is still some hope for those armies which currently lack flyers.
Another option is to get the new book of flyers from Forge World, then every army will be able to have flyers or FMCs (probably).
@Mabbz,
There are no longer rules preventing regrouping even if units are within 6", that was all 5th Edition and is no longer relevant. The only thing that can stop regrouping is failing morale to regroup... which in my mind is great, I always hated the idea of being escorted off the table just because a unit was close to me... I mean, come on. (This all of course unless I am missing something posted in the book AFTER the regrouping section).
1 or 2 aegis defence lines is not NEAR enough to take out lists with 3 or more flyers in them.
Quote from: Warptide on August 23, 2012, 03:58:55 PM
1 or 2 aegis defence lines is not NEAR enough to take out lists with 3 or more flyers in them.
Well just get a large horde, enough S4+ shots and you can glance any flyer out of the sky. Or units like Ork Lootas, CSM Havocs (probably autocannons), IG HWTs (also probably autocannons), Tau stealthsuits (burst cannons might be quite good this edition).
Also, given the reliability of reserves, you probably won't be seeing all of your opponent's flyers at the same time, just systematically take them out before the others show up.
Quote from: Cammerz on August 23, 2012, 04:15:19 PM
Well just get a large horde, enough S4+ shots and you can glance any flyer out of the sky.
Tell me again how S4 can bring down a Stormraven without your opponent being a complete retard? Actually, aren't the festering turds that are Vendettas AV12 too?
Flyers are absurd as things stand. Yes, ok, there's the defence lines but a) I'm willing to bet they're quite expensive cashwise and b) I should not have to gear my list on the off chance that my opponent has been enough of a douche to bring a flyer without telling me.
If they're kept in hover mode, or whatever it's called where they're a Fast Skimmer then fine, but until Skyfire is a lot more common Flyers are horrendously broken. Especially for the cost of some of them.
Yeah, I have to agree with Mkoll on this. It really sucks for Tau. No AA and I really don't want to have to rely on glancing hits to kill flyers.
Quote from: Charistoph on August 10, 2012, 04:25:31 PM
Walker shooting took a bit of a nerf. Before, you could unload with everything, no problem, no matter how far you moved (ordnance being the only exception). Now, if you move, only one is fully effective, the rest are Snap-Fired.
Could we be seeing more one-handed Dreadnoughts coming out? Or will they be platforms only?
Twin-Linked Snap-Fire will not take you very far...
There is no nerf to walker shooting that I can see. Walkers/dreads are just like before you can move and fire everything. Walkers have relentless and move like infantry only with the added rule that they can fire all weapons. So walkers always count as stationary for firing weapons even when they have moved just like relentless infantry.
Quote from: Pottsey on August 25, 2012, 06:27:49 PM
Quote from: Charistoph on August 10, 2012, 04:25:31 PM
Walker shooting took a bit of a nerf. Before, you could unload with everything, no problem, no matter how far you moved (ordnance being the only exception). Now, if you move, only one is fully effective, the rest are Snap-Fired.
Could we be seeing more one-handed Dreadnoughts coming out? Or will they be platforms only?
Twin-Linked Snap-Fire will not take you very far...
There is no nerf to walker shooting that I can see. Walkers/dreads are just like before you can move and fire everything. Walkers have relentless and move like infantry only with the added rule that they can fire all weapons. So walkers always count as stationary for firing weapons even when they have moved just like relentless infantry.
They MOVE like Infantry, but still SHOOT like Vehicles. Remember, all vehicles are Relentless, not just Walkers.
The real issue is things like valkyries and Storm Ravens that came before 6th was almost here. The high AV fliers are incredibly difficult to take out without incredible luck, at least until they come down to hover. I hope that coming codices will provide enough anti-air to at least shift the meta away from flier heavy so some older codices will not be totally screwed.
Quote from: Charistoph on August 26, 2012, 12:13:19 AM
Quote from: Pottsey on August 25, 2012, 06:27:49 PM
Quote from: Charistoph on August 10, 2012, 04:25:31 PM
Walker shooting took a bit of a nerf. Before, you could unload with everything, no problem, no matter how far you moved (ordnance being the only exception). Now, if you move, only one is fully effective, the rest are Snap-Fired.
Could we be seeing more one-handed Dreadnoughts coming out? Or will they be platforms only?
Twin-Linked Snap-Fire will not take you very far...
There is no nerf to walker shooting that I can see. Walkers/dreads are just like before you can move and fire everything. Walkers have relentless and move like infantry only with the added rule that they can fire all weapons. So walkers always count as stationary for firing weapons even when they have moved just like relentless infantry.
They MOVE like Infantry, but still SHOOT like Vehicles. Remember, all vehicles are Relentless, not just Walkers.
Only vehicle
Quote from: Pottsey on August 26, 2012, 09:10:24 AM
Quote from: Charistoph on August 26, 2012, 12:13:19 AM
Quote from: Pottsey on August 25, 2012, 06:27:49 PM
Quote from: Charistoph on August 10, 2012, 04:25:31 PM
Walker shooting took a bit of a nerf. Before, you could unload with everything, no problem, no matter how far you moved (ordnance being the only exception). Now, if you move, only one is fully effective, the rest are Snap-Fired.
Could we be seeing more one-handed Dreadnoughts coming out? Or will they be platforms only?
Twin-Linked Snap-Fire will not take you very far...
There is no nerf to walker shooting that I can see. Walkers/dreads are just like before you can move and fire everything. Walkers have relentless and move like infantry only with the added rule that they can fire all weapons. So walkers always count as stationary for firing weapons even when they have moved just like relentless infantry.
They MOVE like Infantry, but still SHOOT like Vehicles. Remember, all vehicles are Relentless, not just Walkers.
Only vehicle
Quote from: Tom on August 26, 2012, 11:42:12 AM
Quote from: Pottsey on August 26, 2012, 09:10:24 AM
Quote from: Charistoph on August 26, 2012, 12:13:19 AM
Quote from: Pottsey on August 25, 2012, 06:27:49 PM
Quote from: Charistoph on August 10, 2012, 04:25:31 PM
Walker shooting took a bit of a nerf. Before, you could unload with everything, no problem, no matter how far you moved (ordnance being the only exception). Now, if you move, only one is fully effective, the rest are Snap-Fired.
Could we be seeing more one-handed Dreadnoughts coming out? Or will they be platforms only?
Twin-Linked Snap-Fire will not take you very far...
There is no nerf to walker shooting that I can see. Walkers/dreads are just like before you can move and fire everything. Walkers have relentless and move like infantry only with the added rule that they can fire all weapons. So walkers always count as stationary for firing weapons even when they have moved just like relentless infantry.
They MOVE like Infantry, but still SHOOT like Vehicles. Remember, all vehicles are Relentless, not just Walkers.
Only vehicle
Don't get used to it. They already fucked some things with FAQs. *gumbletargetlocksgumble*
Quote from: Tybalt Defet on September 01, 2012, 04:31:34 PM
Don't get used to it. They already sav'y'xa'uk some things with FAQs. *gumbletargetlocksgumble*
And anyone who expected the first round of FAQs to be perfect were insanely optimistic.
Heck, it took 3 tries to get the Bretonnian Lance Formation correct for Fantasy 8th Edition! And that was an easy one!
Oh I never did. FAQs have never, nor will ever be, perfect. But even so, somethings are just so stupid. Why remove target locks altoghter? They weren't broken. But, that's been whinged about already, so lets move on.
And just as another thread reports that the target lock and disruption pods are back, I found another really annoying omission. Behold the Tau Sniper Drone Team. Behold the Spotter of said team, who is essentially the squad-leader of the unit. More than that, if he dies, the rest of the unit is removed also. Sounds like a Character who should at least get a 4+ Look Out Sir, right? Wrong. There's nothing in the FAQ, and the reference table in the back lists him as In, not In (Ch). So no LOS for him.
Quote from: knightperson on September 07, 2012, 06:07:08 PM
And just as another thread reports that the target lock and disruption pods are back, I found another really annoying omission. Behold the Tau Sniper Drone Team. Behold the Spotter of said team, who is essentially the squad-leader of the unit. More than that, if he dies, the rest of the unit is removed also. Sounds like a Character who should at least get a 4+ Look Out Sir, right? Wrong. There's nothing in the FAQ, and the reference table in the back lists him as In, not In (Ch). So no LOS for him.
Yeah, but now your Disruption Pods are absolutely absurd. 3+ cover save as standard for a vehicle in cover for a measly 5pts? I'm sorry but no, that's ridiculous. Flechettes now have competition for the Most Ridiculously Priced Upgrade award it seems.
Quote from: Warmaster Russ on September 07, 2012, 06:31:58 PM
Quote from: knightperson on September 07, 2012, 06:07:08 PM
And just as another thread reports that the target lock and disruption pods are back, I found another really annoying omission. Behold the Tau Sniper Drone Team. Behold the Spotter of said team, who is essentially the squad-leader of the unit. More than that, if he dies, the rest of the unit is removed also. Sounds like a Character who should at least get a 4+ Look Out Sir, right? Wrong. There's nothing in the FAQ, and the reference table in the back lists him as In, not In (Ch). So no LOS for him.
Yeah, but now your Disruption Pods are absolutely absurd. 3+ cover save as standard for a vehicle in cover for a measly 5pts? I'm sorry but no, that's ridiculous. Flechettes now have competition for the Most Ridiculously Priced Upgrade award it seems.
Or 2+ cover if it
The devilfish is still over priced even with that save. Although its utility just went up because it isnt worth shooting with anyway.
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on September 07, 2012, 06:44:11 PM
The devilfish is still over priced even with that save. Although its utility just went up because it isnt worth shooting with anyway.
...the hell it is. It's still Front Armour 12. That's one hell of a difference from Armour 11. Also, this isn't just applicable to Devilfish, it applies to Hammerheads, Piranha and Skyrays too. A 2+ cover save for turbo boosting Piranha shouldn't even exist, the fact that it does means that it should at least be priced sensibly, not given for as good as free.
Vehicles with 2+ cover saves, I admit, is pretty nuts, especially since in some cases that cover save allows shooting as well. It's no good against melee, vehicles can't overwatch, and the flechette launcher isn't all that effective against some units, so it sounds like the way to down Tau vehicles is to run up and punch them. Or at least get into melta range. Which is odd considering how much shooting was strengthened over assault in 6th Edition, but this is the Tau we're talking about so I guess it makes sense. The other option would be to clobber them with Breath of Chaos if you happen to be running the right army.
Now what the heck happens when an IG Hydra fires at a turboboosting, disruption-podded piranha at over 12 inches range? Since the IG FAQ says you can't Jink from a hydra's fire, I assume it would be 2+ if in terrain or 5+ in the open, regardless of speed.
@Jayne: I disagree as well. I calculated the number of points per pulse-fire hit for the classic warfish some years ago, and it's almost as good as fire warriors at long range. What the heck, I'll reproduce it here. Fire warriors are BS 3 and 10 points each, so that's 20 points per hit. The warfish I usually run is 120 points, 7 shots, and BS 4. The 7 shots, on average will produce 4 2/3 hits. Divide that into 120 points, and you get 25.7 points. About a 25% difference in efficiency, and yes the fire warriors can double their firepower at close range, but they're also MUCH easier to kill and not as mobile. And I think coming close to the damage per point of fire warriors is pretty good for a vehicle whose primary purpose isn't damage-dealing in the first place!
I know this is old, but I think this WTF is really worth putting here. It's from the new daemon codex :facepalm001:. I would say due to this power it may cause people to play more daemons. What's worst is that with allies it's super bad/ good.
The WTF in question is Doomstone. It's rather cheap and most HQ choices can take this as an option. I would say the designers was smart enough to limit any character to 1 exaulted power. However stick this on a herald :shifty: and Grimore on another :shifty: and throw them in a squad of beast of nurgle that have t5 with 4 wounds. Stick them in +4 cover save which would make them +2 cover save with the whole unit having a +3 invulnerable save. After all that you use your doomstone.
Before combat all enemy non daemons have to make a leadership test. Let's say this is turn one and you have like 12 units on the board. Let's for argument sake say they are leadership 10. On average 2 units fail which means they are now for the rest of the game are leadership 5 in the middle of the first turn. Your or the enemy turn comes up one of your squads probably fail leadership, while the two leadership 5 models will have to make leadership test. If they fail again they will be knocked down to 0 and die. In one turn without shooting a single shot you just killed 2 units :'(. Fearless doesn't stop this at all since it is a leadership check and not a morale check. As the game goes on Doom for it's really cheap cost can wipe out any army unless they are heavy mech.
Now that you understand Doom daemons can take guard allies. Mainly the psyker battle squad which can lower leadership to 2. By doing so let's say I do this to 10 wraithguard. When Doom comes around they have to make a leadership test on 2 or die :pie:. :facepalm001:
People was complaing about those flamers. I think this is just as bad.
I've noticed that 2+ cover save really isn't all that anymore since the Helldrake became the bees knees. Plus also now that swooping MCs can ignore cover with their Vector strikes really makes them a powerful package.
Best,
-BT
Want to correct myself and say Doom Stone works on Characters and MC's only in combat. However said tactic still works. Need a MC dead lower leadership to two and assault with doom.