Second Sphere

Hobby Creations => Hobby => Topic started by: Jonagon on September 09, 2012, 09:14:43 AM

Title: Marine DIY Chapter advice
Post by: Jonagon on September 09, 2012, 09:14:43 AM
Hey guys, Long time no see! Am thinking about creating my own chapter for a new army, and wanted to run the fluff i'm thinking about past you, since I know there's a few of you around here that know a thing or two about marine fluff.  ;)

Basics

Chapter Name: Experiment XIV
Nicknames: Knights of the sunset wolf, Wolf Knights, Sunset Wolves
Founding: During the Heresy
Primarch: The Emperor
Codex: Non-standard
Combat style: Brutal close combat
Colours: Silver/Blue/Orange
Home world: Callisto (Saturn moon)
Loyalty: Imperium
Size: Small < 150
Inquistion view: Suspicious

Ok, so my idea is that the emperor was experimenting in secret during the early parts of the heresy on a moon of Saturn, on a project which would later lead to the Grey Knights. However, when the Heresy kicked off he grew increasingly busy and this experiment was abandoned. Years later around 150 marines were discovered on Callisto, with no knowledge of their origins. In the meantime the chapter had developed, following the teachings of the emperor recorded in various texts left in their labarotary-fortress.

This left the imperium with a problem, what to do with this small band of marines? For now they have been allowed to fight the emperors foes, though the inquistion keeps a watchful eye. Not least because the chapter has shown signs of brutality not inconsistant with the unstable Canis Helix gene. However, the chapter has been particularly successful in combating the forces of chaos, though without the advanced psychic barriers the grey knights were later to display, so for now they are a useful tool for the Imperium.

For the part of the chapter themselves, they have no clear record of their origin, beyond speculation that they were created by the emperor, even the chapter's name is in doubt. Officially they are known as 'Experiment XIV'. However, many who have witness the brutality of their close combat style have nicknamed them the Wolf knights or Sunset Wolves due to their colour scheme.

------------------------

So, am I taking too many fluff liberties? Is it all a bit unbelievable? My plan would be to use grey knight models with some space wolf parts (especially heads) added.
Title: Re: Marine DIY Chapter advice
Post by: Rej on September 10, 2012, 01:36:31 AM
I think the Emperor was busier doing other stuff at the time, he was too busy to even deal with the Heresy until it was on his door step. Rogal Dorn/Loyal deathguard come to tell him of Horus's heresy and there told, "yeah, the Emperors too busy, just deal with it". And the Emperors apparently working on something so secret and important that he had to stop leading the Crusade and couldn't tell anyone, not even his favoured Son, why. (I think it's hinted at that he was trying to wipe out the Gods).

I do like the thought of someone messing with the Canis Helix and getting some ferocious warriors, I just don't agree with the inclusion of the Emperor. He wouldn't have thought of creating new warriors until during or after the Heresy (we assume the Grey Knights come in here, if that was the Emperor that made them), before the Heresy there was no reason too. He had 20 Legions, nothing could, or was standing in his way.

I reckon you could move it to before the Heresy and have it in relation to the 2 missing Legions. We still don't know how or why they dissapeared (though its hinted the Space Wolves wiped out at least one of them). Maybe someone was looking at the problems those Legions had, Genetic or whatever doing Experiments. This I can see the Emperor doing.

Or move it to after the Heresy and have the Inquisition or someone trying to harness the Canis Helix and achieve the ferociety of the Space Wolves with the Control of Imperial Fists. Or something like that. Abandoned installation a whole heap of mystery and adventure.
Title: Re: Marine DIY Chapter advice
Post by: Lord Sotek on September 10, 2012, 02:28:27 PM
 :facepalm001:

I am afraid just about nothing in this chapter's concept works.

No Chapters were created before or during the heresy, only after. The First Founding is completely locked down; the full list of all chapters it created are known. Thus, your chapter's date of origin is impossible.

According to fluff, only two attempts were ever made to found new chapters using Space Wolf geneseed, and both were such miserable failures that SW geneseed was completely banned for the founding of any new chapters. Thus, even ignoring the massive faux pas of "Created directly by the Emperor's hand to kick more ass than other space marines," your chapter's choice of geneseed is impossible.

The Emperor has never been stated to found any group of space marines directly from his own "geneseed," if such exists. We merely have hints that this is the source of the Custodes' and Grey Knights' geneline. Outright stating the Emperor made your chapter is poor writing, in poor taste, and just outright not justifiable. If the Emperor Himself made these guys, and considering the Custodes he already has no reason to, we'd have heard about them from Games Workshop already.

Locating your chapter's homeworld in the Sol system is yet another massive faux pas. The Grey Knights are already based in one of Jupiter's moons. Sol is far too important for another chapter to be located there without the setting already having let us know about it.

Having your chapter be inexplicably super massive awesome at killing Chaos? Yeah, not only does it not make sense, but it's yet ANOTHER faux pas. Turbokilling the forces of Chaos is the Grey Knights' job and founding purpose.

Your chapter's name being a direct combination of Space Wolves and Grey Knights is exceedingly unimaginitive.

Honestly? The whole thing sounds like you couldn't make up your mind whether you wanted to play Grey Knights or Space Wolves and so you decided to make a new chapter that was both rolled into one. This is bad. Instead of the unique and interesting chapter you were hoping for, it comes across as a "Look at meeeee look at how Special I am! My marines are the super bestest marines ever, even betterer than other space marines! They're Grey Knight Space Wolves and are so awesome the Emperor made them himself!"

Instead of making them neat, this makes them come across as really forced and inane. Space marines are already godlike superhuman killing machines, every single one of them. You distinguish them and make them neat by giving them character and personality, not by telling everyone how your marines are even better and more awesome killing machines than the rest of the lot.


If you want to model a chapter using Grey Knight and Space Wolf parts mixed, go ahead! You'll probably come out with lots of really awesome minis. But you should look to something other than a mishmash of elements taken directly from those two chapters for your own space marines' background.

I know this post has not been very positive towards your chapter, but what needs to be said needs to be said. I need a breather, and after that I'll make another post containing the helpful comments and constructive suggestions and whatnot. If you have the time and the testicular fortitude, I would suggest reading the weighty but very helpful Ferrata's Guide on Creating DIY Chapters. (http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=132379&st=0&p=1520507&#entry1520507)

But the bottom line is that your chapter's fluff needs rebuilding from the ground up to be a fitting part of the 40k universe.
Title: Re: Marine DIY Chapter advice
Post by: Jonagon on September 12, 2012, 06:44:15 PM
haha, thanks very much for the feedback. To clarrify a couple of things:

1. Yes, I'm really looking for a way to justify an army made up of SW and GK kits.

2. I'm not trying to say my chapter is super awesome, I really like the idea of flawed heroes, what I was trying to get at, was that they were an early experiment in genetics and maybe aren't as good as other marines, though they have shown appitude in certain areas.

3. We know the emperor did create genetic warriors prior to the space marines, and at least during the heresy some of them were still around, stands to reason that there is the potential for others to be around somewhere, though I accept a whole load of them kicking around would have been in the fluff by now.

4. Yeah putting them in the Sol system was a little silly, but it seemed to fit with some of the other stuff.

I'll have to have a deep think about what direction to go in with this in future. I didn't realise people generally didn't create fluff randomly.

Ie, what you seem to be saying is, people can only create minor chapters, giving a reason why GW haven't mentioned them thus far? Can't one create something from scratch on the basis that it hasn't been ruled out by existing cannon?

PS: I based a load of this on what I read here: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Grey_Knights#.UFDWsVHhdIY, perhaps this wasn't the best move!
Title: Re: Marine DIY Chapter advice
Post by: Wargamer on September 12, 2012, 07:17:10 PM
It's about plausibility. The simple fact is, we would know by now if there was any organisation even remotely similar to the Grey Knights, purely because the Grey Knights themselves are so well documented.

Look at it this way - I could easily create the background for an entire sub-sector, and that would be accepted because GW hasn't even come close to covering one one-hundredth of the Imperium yet. Hell, even pivotal worlds are often only coverd by a small paragraph of text.

However, where I to take it upon myself to write the fluff for the Sol system, that would cause issue because Sol is a major part of the 40K universe - GW has already laid claim to it.
Title: Re: Marine DIY Chapter advice
Post by: Jonagon on September 12, 2012, 07:42:21 PM
hmm, ok fair point.

I don't suppose anyone has any ideas on how to justify a models with combined GK and SW parts then?  :P
Title: Re: Marine DIY Chapter advice
Post by: Narric on September 12, 2012, 08:41:26 PM
Depends on how you've kit-bashed, as you will need to take WYSIWYG into consideration when making an army list.

If you make a Hobby Board thread with somepics of your miis, it may give us a better idea of what we're/you're working with.

All I hear right now is GK/SW kit-bashed minis, and without knowing what they look like, I can't visualise how I'd portray them.
Title: Re: Marine DIY Chapter advice
Post by: Jonagon on September 12, 2012, 08:49:16 PM
At the moment the miniatures don't exist, but basically the plan is:

Parts: SW heads, GK weapons, mostly GK armour with the odd bit of SW thrown in and sang guard jump packs for some assault marines.

Colour scheme plan at the moment is: Silver with orange highlights, down to blues/purples in the shadows.

I think I'll use the GK book with allied SW so I can use all the units I want.
As far as WYSIWYG, I'll probably be 'Counts as'-ing some weapons, so they wont' be fully WYSIWIG, this doesn't bother me, I don't play competitively these days.


Title: Re: Marine DIY Chapter advice
Post by: Narric on September 12, 2012, 09:03:21 PM
It sounds like you might as well stick to the Grey Knight codex. This is a personal opinion, but I don't see the point of using two MARINE codexi to field a single MARINE army.

The Colour scheme sounds boring, and people will simply assume you're playing Grey Kngihts anyway.

This is just my opinion.
Title: Re: Marine DIY Chapter advice
Post by: Lord Sotek on September 12, 2012, 09:05:40 PM
Quote from: Jonagon on September 12, 2012, 07:42:21 PM
hmm, ok fair point.

I don't suppose anyone has any ideas on how to justify a models with combined GK and SW parts then?  :P

Writing a Chapter fluff to justify choice of modelling bitz is both unnecessary and undesirable. Just go with the parts that you like to model your army; you don't need to go out of your way to justify bitz choices because different chapters already use all sorts of different marks and variants of gear.

Focus instead on who your chapter is; what their collective personality, demeanor, and character are. What they are like and why they fight, these are the sorts of things that make a Chapter. Not whether their armor has wolf skulls or Nemesis Force Nemesisforces or winged blood droplets or what have you.

I really do reccomend Feratta's guide again. Particularly, the "Guide to an Index Astartes" post. That post is presented as a concise and comprehensive questionnaire, and jotting down even just one or two sentences to answer each question can take you leaps and bounds down the path to a proper DIY.
Title: Re: Marine DIY Chapter advice
Post by: Jonagon on December 22, 2012, 01:28:08 PM
Thanks for all the advice in this thread guys.

I have been reconsidering the fluff from my potential grey knight project and have decided to throw away what I had previously, keep it simple. As you said, I dont' really need to justify my modelling choices if I don't want to directly, so I'm going to keep it much simpler...

For the last 6000 years a small contingent of grey knights has guarded a portal to the warp on a planet known as Onolia Prime. Located in the Onolian system, this is actually fairly close to the galactic centre, being an offshoot from the eye of terror. When a daemonic incursion ripped it open all those years ago it would threaten to bypass the Cadian gate defences. The Inqusition, unable to seal the rift installed the grey knights to be the guardians of this crucial location. Using advanced technology which had been recently recovered by the Mechanicum bound to the intense psychic potential of the knights themselves the system is kept hidden from the universe at large.

6000 years have passed and the grey knights have been unflinching from their task, even as communication and reinforcements from Titan have become rarer and rarer. They cannot shake the impression they are being forgotten. More recently in a worrying development they have discovered that various Xenos races are unaffected by the Mechanicum's cloaking technology. It is unclear at the moment if this is due to the races themselves or if the systems installed so many years ago are failing.

This means the knights are increasingly encountering conflict, both with xenos races and the dark forces which occasionally spew forth from the portal they are guarding.

Battle Group Onolia, with their commander, Brother Captain Julutho, must fight their war on two fronts to survive and keep
their sworn oath to guard the Onolian system.

What do you think? :)
Title: Re: Marine DIY Chapter advice
Post by: Narric on December 22, 2012, 01:45:54 PM
That sounds cool, and very believable.

My only thought is, isn't 600 years a bit long? I know Space Marines could potentially live for Centuries, but Millenia?

I haven't read the Grey Knight HH book ,so my thoughts could be unfounded.
Title: Re: Marine DIY Chapter advice
Post by: LinnScarlett on December 22, 2012, 01:56:32 PM
Quote from: Narric of 4th Sphere on December 22, 2012, 01:45:54 PM
That sounds cool, and very believable.

My only thought is, isn't 600 years a bit long? I know Space Marines could potentially live for Centuries, but Millenia?

I haven't read the Grey Knight HH book ,so my thoughts could be unfounded.

I was under the impression the higher echelons/heroes of space marine chapters regularly kick past the 400 benchmark (of rejuv max for rich Imperial non-Astartes). Admittedly, that still leaves 98% of the chapter kicking around with a 50-200 year turn-over rate. Due to, you know, bolter fire, chainswords, rabid aliens.

I recently re-read the first book of the HH and it, from recollection, says literally that Space Marines are functionally immortal, so bar sticking it to them with something sharp, they can live *forever* However, as most Space Marines appear fond of making war, rather than knitting, that hasn't happened yet. I think some of the oldest 'living' Space Marines include Bjorn The Fellhanded (and about every other dreadnought, I suppose), and whatshisface, Dante? I recall someone being insanely old, in canon.

Oh, and it sounds cool, Jona! Will you be writing about this? *shoves you towards the empty, quiet, voidish fiction and fluff threads*
Title: Re: Marine DIY Chapter advice
Post by: LinnScarlett on December 22, 2012, 02:17:15 PM
Quote from: Wargamer on September 12, 2012, 07:17:10 PM
It's about plausibility.

I'd say, Willing Suspension of Disbelief - and W40k makes that into a grotesque art like little other franchises do (ill-understood space travel with 10k yr old ships  nobody understands fully THROUGH HELL, anyone?!) The trick, is making your WSoD as ridiculous as W40k, so that it blends into its background and standards, while still maintaining its precarious integrity with this outragious world. Anything that doesn't push WSoD limits, will feel 'boring' compared to the rest of W40k, and anything that shoves it harder (or at the wrong places) will stand out like a sore thumb as 'over-done look-at-me-ism' - a.k.a Gary Stu/Mary Sue Space Marines (or IG, or INQ, etc.)

What our favourite wiki-P says about WSoD:
"...is a term coined in 1817 by the poet and aesthetic philosopher Samuel Taylor Coleridge (...), who suggested that if a writer could infuse a "human interest and a semblance of truth" into a fantastic tale, the reader would suspend judgment concerning the implausibility of the narrative."

And suspending judgement concerning implausibility means... believing it, on its own terms, no matter how fantastical! We're all buying into concepts like the Emperor, and the Space Marines because they have a semblance of truth at their roots (being world-conquerers and genetically modified supersoldiering respecitvely; all of which are the staple of history and fiction).

I know you threw the plan overboard, but I wanted to comment on it, anyway, because I hope it might help you next time you try your hand at creating your own nich
Title: Re: Marine DIY Chapter advice
Post by: Jonagon on December 22, 2012, 02:55:51 PM
Thanks Linn, good tips. I've only ever dabbled a little bit with writing, but it's something I'd like to do more of.

Quote from: Narric of 4th Sphere on December 22, 2012, 01:45:54 PM

My only thought is, isn't 600 years a bit long? I know Space Marines could potentially live for Centuries, but Millenia?

Narric and Linn, yeah 6000 years was what I'd said and I'd assumed they'd been resupplied in the beginning, so the guys there are not the same as at the start, though more recently they've been less supplied, so that the guys there are pretty old.

That said, 6000 is still probably a bit mad, maybe I should say 1500 years, but there has been no reinforcement for the last 200 years, so everyone hanging out there is pretty old.
Title: Re: Marine DIY Chapter advice
Post by: LinnScarlett on December 22, 2012, 08:42:40 PM
Quote from: Jonagon on December 22, 2012, 02:55:51 PM
Thanks Linn, good tips. I've only ever dabbled a little bit with writing, but it's something I'd like to do more of.

[SUPERSNIP]

That said, 6000 is still probably a bit mad, maybe I should say 1500 years, but there has been no reinforcement for the last 200 years, so everyone hanging out there is pretty old.

Your welcome, if you need an opinion/bounce an idea/ or some advice, just fling it to me and I'll give you my ambiguous opinion on it if you want! ;)

Ogh, all the old guys are stealing the stars in W40k atm - even Ciaphas is getting on in years! And he's one of the youngest by far. That said, I think you should go with 2741 years (random is better than rounded!) and the last 341 years (same reason) there has been no supplies, or only 'trickles' of bits and pieces scout / provisioners they might have send out might have brought back. I can't see SMs sitting on their asses and starving, but yea! :P

Just don't say its a warp-storm! Warp-storms are overused. >.>