Second Sphere

Hobby Creations => House Rules => Topic started by: Mabbz on December 19, 2012, 09:02:56 PM

Title: Covert Operations (a kill team remake)
Post by: Mabbz on December 19, 2012, 09:02:56 PM
Well, I'm finally uploading it. (http://mabbz.deviantart.com/#/d5om6hb)

Back in the 4th edition rulebook was a set of rules called kill team. They featured a small group of commandos trying to sneak past the guards to complete whatever objective they had. It was a good idea, but I always felt that there was so much more that could have been done with it. So shortly after 5th Ed came out, I started rewriting the kill team rule into an expansion similar to Planetstrike. Every few months I would remember it and make a alterations, or add a new page. And now, I've got it to a point where I'm willing to post it here.

These rule are by no means final, so please, post anything you think could improve them. If there's something that could be added, or should be removed or changed please let me know.
Title: Re: Kill Team Revamped
Post by: Narric on December 19, 2012, 10:19:58 PM
I'm going to download it, and I'll give you my thoughts shortly.

Here is some wroding errors and changes I'll point out:

Quote from: Alertness, P2
Sentries have a spotting distance which is equal to it's Initiative plus the number klaxon counters the Controlling player has accrued

This seems completely badly worded to me
Quote from: Independence, P3
Real soldiers don
Title: Re: Kill Team Revamped
Post by: Mabbz on December 21, 2012, 02:06:16 PM
I'm going to download it, and I'll give you my thoughts shortly.

Here is some wording errors and changes I'll point out:

Quote from: Alertness, P2
Sentries have a spotting distance which is equal to it's Initiative plus the number klaxon counters the Controlling player has accrued

This seems completely badly worded to me
Do you have any suggestions about rewording it? I've never been great at wording.

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Reference to this "Boss" doesn't make sense, and should have been explained prior to the Advanced Rules.

Narrative points are something else tha in my opinion should be mentioned later. I like the rules, but perhaps Kill Team/Defender List building should comes first.
You're right, I actually meant to rearrange several of the pages but I forgot.

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Quote from: Shot-of-a-lifetime, P4
The model may only fire one weapon this turn
Considering you havent stated previously that models can fire more then one weapon per turn, this is redundant.
A little, yes, but some models can fire more than one weapon (monstrous creatures, tau with multi trackers etc.). I'll probably remove that line though.

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Quote from: Still not Dead
Use when a kill team model or boss dies. Instead of removing it, place it on its side. At the start of his next turn, he gets back up with one wound remaining, and may act as normal. At the end of the turn, roll a die. On a 4+ he stays alive for another turn; otherwise he dies. After the 2nd turn he automatically dies and. A model may only use this action once.
"Automaticaly dies and" .. And what?!

Alt wording:
The model dies (with no saves or further Heroic Actions permitted) after the second turn they survive, after using the "still not Dead" Heroic Action.
This Action may only be used once per model.
And... Editing typo :-[

I will fix that.

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Quote from: Misdirection
Kill team members only. Use at the start of the defender
Title: Re: Kill Team Revamped
Post by: Narric on December 21, 2012, 02:42:46 PM
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You're right, I actually meant to rearrange several of the pages but I forgot.
That understandable.

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A little, yes, but some models can fire more than one weapon (monstrous creatures, tau with multi trackers etc.). I'll probably remove that line though.
Ah, I forgot about that.

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And... Editing typo :-[

I will fix that.
Thought so :P Thought I'd ask incase something important was missed.

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It's more representing blind luck making them look skilled than new powers as the plot demands (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NewPowersAsThePlotDemands). I might change it, I haven't decided.
Might be something to try in testing, mayhaps?

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It's to prevent the annoying people that try to take an enormous blob squad for a kill team. I've seen it before, it surprisingly effective.
Hmm. Well I guess I can agree with you I've had to face two vindicators in a 600pt game -_-

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I meant to remove this as I have a better explanation on the previous page.
Oh balls, i must have misread that section then ^^;;

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I think that may have been a throwback to the old rules. I'll remove it.
I've found you can make a 4 model Tau Kill Team, but you potentially grant a Narrative point to the opponent for it. (for ignoring two other rules)

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I honestly can't remember why I have that. I think it may be another throwback :-[
These throwback rules are a right bitch XD

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This rule is meant to be broken. While you can take models from different units, it can vastly improve the KT effectiveness. This rule makes you have to think about whether or not taking models from 5 different units is really worth it.
Ah clever and sneaky, however, my second Tau KT is potentially effective, and didn't break this rule, or any others, enough to grant a Narrative point ;)

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- No psychic powers.
This can easily be read as "No Grey Knight Kill Teams."
I think it should be a core rule of "Only one model with the Psyker special Rule may use Psychic Powers in the army." This means that a Grey Knight Kill Team is allowe, but the entire KT can't use its powers.
That can be broken, so the more relevant (major) rule is "no more than 2 psykers". Another alternative would involve saying that brotherhoods of psyker have to stay together and only count as one psyker. I'm not sure.
Its definately tricky ground. Maybe some additional rules could/should be made so it works.

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As a tau and guard player, I tend to forget to take some other armies into account. I need to think more about the restrictions on psykers.
ence why its good to get ideas like this out into the open :D You'll get feedback for things you hand't considered.

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- No bikes or jetbikes.
If the Defender has Vehicles, then chances are any Bikes in the Kill Team will have their tick-over engine noise hidden. You're actually loosing yourself another detection point, as you're more likely to hear a bike sooner, then you are to see the biker.
Jetbikes are  near enough Eldar exclusive, and are most likely excellent for Kill Teams as they can be in, out and complete their objective, possibly before any alarm is raised.
My issue is that they could easily be horribly overpowered. I'm not sure how to fix that though.
If you allow them, you could limit the number. Considering three seems to be the minimum for any Bike/Jetbike squad, you could enforce that as an Unbreakable rule.

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Again, I hated players that took 10 identical tactical marines. They break practically no rules (so they offer little in the way of narrative points as compensation) and are actually very effective.
So essentially I'd have the right the wargear down of each individual model? Sounds alright. Thing with Vanilla Tactical Marines, is that for 160pts IIRC they get a Flamer and Missile Launcher for free.

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The Major Rules seem ok, but Pts limit will be a limit enough on Vehicles.
Probably, but a guard player could theoretically take quite a lot of sentinels. This is most likely unnecessary, but I put it in just in case.
Oh, yes, Hadn't thought of that, again XD

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I love the scenarios. I'm sure with some playtesting they can be fine-tuned.
I've only playtested one (assasinate) and I made several changes just based on that. I intend to test the rest when I get the chance, but if you test them please let me know.
I've got Vassal Updated, so I might find some time to test out all three at some point.

Hope I've helped in some way ^_^
Title: Re: Kill Team Revamped
Post by: Mabbz on December 21, 2012, 03:24:17 PM
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It's more representing blind luck making them look skilled than new powers as the plot demands (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NewPowersAsThePlotDemands). I might change it, I haven't decided.
Might be something to try in testing, mayhaps?
Always a good idea.

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It's to prevent the annoying people that try to take an enormous blob squad for a kill team. I've seen it before, it surprisingly effective.
Hmm. Well I guess I can agree with you I've had to face two vindicators in a 600pt game -_-
Indeed. I play against poweregamers to often to not start making rules like this.

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I think that may have been a throwback to the old rules. I'll remove it.
I've found you can make a 4 model Tau Kill Team, but you potentially grant a Narrative point to the opponent for it. (for ignoring two other rules)[/quote]There's no reason to worry much about granting narrative points, they're useful but hopefully not game changing.

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This rule is meant to be broken. While you can take models from different units, it can vastly improve the KT effectiveness. This rule makes you have to think about whether or not taking models from 5 different units is really worth it.
Ah clever and sneaky, however, my second Tau KT is potentially effective, and didn't break this rule, or any others, enough to grant a Narrative point ;)
I might make a separate thread for people to write up kill teams and defence forces. It could be useful to see what people come up with.

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Quote
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- No psychic powers.
This can easily be read as "No Grey Knight Kill Teams."
I think it should be a core rule of "Only one model with the Psyker special Rule may use Psychic Powers in the army." This means that a Grey Knight Kill Team is allowe, but the entire KT can't use its powers.
That can be broken, so the more relevant (major) rule is "no more than 2 psykers". Another alternative would involve saying that brotherhoods of psyker have to stay together and only count as one psyker. I'm not sure.
Its definately tricky ground. Maybe some additional rules could/should be made so it works.

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As a tau and guard player, I tend to forget to take some other armies into account. I need to think more about the restrictions on psykers.
hence why its good to get ideas like this out into the open :D You'll get feedback for things you hadn't considered.
Hence why it is in the open. This seems to be the biggest sticking point so far, and I welcome any ideas.

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- No bikes or jetbikes.
If the Defender has Vehicles, then chances are any Bikes in the Kill Team will have their tick-over engine noise hidden. You're actually loosing yourself another detection point, as you're more likely to hear a bike sooner, then you are to see the biker.
Jetbikes are  near enough Eldar exclusive, and are most likely excellent for Kill Teams as they can be in, out and complete their objective, possibly before any alarm is raised.
My issue is that they could easily be horribly overpowered. I'm not sure how to fix that though.
If you allow them, you could limit the number. Considering three seems to be the minimum for any Bike/Jetbike squad, you could enforce that as an Unbreakable rule.
That would work. I'll change it.

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Again, I hated players that took 10 identical tactical marines. They break practically no rules (so they offer little in the way of narrative points as compensation) and are actually very effective.
So essentially I'd have the right the wargear down of each individual model? Sounds alright. Thing with Vanilla Tactical Marines, is that for 160pts IIRC they get a Flamer and Missile Launcher for free.
I don't really like that rule, but I want to stop people from having boring but overpowered kill teams. Rule 0 is very important when using these rules.

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I love the scenarios. I'm sure with some playtesting they can be fine-tuned.
I've only playtested one (assasinate) and I made several changes just based on that. I intend to test the rest when I get the chance, but if you test them please let me know.
I've got Vassal Updated, so I might find some time to test out all three at some point.
I've never been able to get Vassal to work. I have been considering running an RP using these rules though. It won't be until the new year though.

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Hope I've helped in some way ^_^
I'm going to make at least half a dozen improvements thanks to you. I'd call that helpful ;)

Thanks.
Title: Re: Kill Team Revamped
Post by: Mabbz on December 22, 2012, 05:53:15 PM
V1.1 is up. (http://mabbz.deviantart.com/art/Warhammer-40-000-kill-team-revamp-343676495)

Changes:
- significant layout changes. Contents page added
- various changes to force creation rules
- rules for corpses added
- boss renamed to base leader
- various typos fixed
Title: Re: Kill Team Revamped
Post by: Narric on October 12, 2013, 11:03:52 AM
Was gonna leave this as a comment on DA, but figured you'd get it quicker if I reply here :P

On my current read-through, I can't help but feel it needs some padding from cover to the start of the rules. Maybe some sort of explanation of what Kill Team (this game variation that is) is, and maybe why it would be an interesting diversion from regular 40k. IDK, something for you to think about?

The section titled "Sentries" feels it would be better if started as a description of playing the Defender. For Kill Team Specific rules, start it off as describing playing as a Kill Team leader. Basically, make players understand what each side means, and <i>then</i> go into details such as what does & doesn't count as a "Sentry" unit, and so on.

Onto Sentry units specifically. Saying "any vehicles must be inconspicuous" is not a very clear ruling. Being specific would help here, such as saying "No Sentry vehicle may have a total Armour Value higher than 33." This works well, as anybody who has played 40min 40k will know what that gives them in terms of options. adding an additional rule of "No armour facing may be higher than 12" also adds a layer of clarity/specificity, giving beardy players less room for loop-hole abuse.

There is one weapon type I believ you overlooked in regard to the "Klaxon Counters." the humble Sniper Rifle. Even in 40k, it can be assumed sniper rifles would be silenced, and so in Kill Team they would be harder to hear. This can easily be represented by a re-roll of a successful "Klaxon roll." It can be said the Sentry has shrugged it off as distant gun-fire from a local conflict.

Bike Engines, Jump Pack and Jetpack thrusters are pretty distinct, and something a good sentry would be trained to keep an ear out for. I'd say if any of the above is used within 12" of a Sentry, all Defender units are activated.

One thing i think needs tweaking is "Alertness." Guardsmen are I3 iims, but we could easily assume he can see further than that. Making 6" a minimum spotting distance allows the Defender to be strategic with his placement.

I find it weird a sentry who isn't aware would not be able to react quick enough to get one shot off. Allow an unalert sentry overwatch, but obviously keep the no-shooting & no-assault parts.

I feel bodies shouldn't be moved. It makes more sense and is less straining to simply hide the body. Often just covering the body in a tarp in an industrial area, or covering with leaves in a foresty area. get my drift?

I feel you should put some restrictions on the base leader. I refer again to 40min 40k. the following rules make for excellent restrictions at low point games for leaders: no 2+ saves, no more than 3 wounds per model, No Special Characters. Simple enough.

I think Sounding the alarm isa little slow. If a base alarm has been raised, why would the sentries and soldiers stand around? Why not roll a D6, and the alarm is raised if the score is less than the total Klaxon counters?

Independence is easily a Kill Team Game specific rule. However, I disagree with the Defender side. In my mind, it would be more reasonable if unaware sentries became alert if an alert sentry comes into spotting distance. Would you just walk past a soldier who is pointing his gun out into the darkness if you're supposed to be defending the location?

I'd need a real game of Kill Team before having a decent say about the limits of force selection.

Thats all I have to say right now ^_^ Hope it helps.

I'm working most of tomorrow, but maybe we could play a game of Kill Team tomorrow after 7pm? I'll make a KT list, and a Defense list, and we can roll off for who is what.
Title: Re: Kill Team Revamped
Post by: Mabbz on October 14, 2013, 09:25:47 PM
Sorry it took so long to reply to this, I've been surprisingly busy these last two days, I haven't been able to post a full response.

For the benefit of people that aren't secretly spying on me and Narric, this is actually an excerpt from a PM conversation. And we did have that game, which highlighted a few more issues. I am in the process of making the relevant changes, but here's a rundown:

Definite changes/additions:
- Introduction page.
- General layout changes to make things easier to find.
- Pistol and Sniper weapons only add klaxon counters on a roll of 6.
- Bodies can't be moved, instead a model can spend a turn hiding them, removing them from play.
- When the alarm is sounded, sentries become aware if they pass a leadership test, rather than a simple d6.
- Kill Team player has a minimum of 5 Narrative Points rather than three.

Possible changes/additions:
- Certain bits of re-wording, such as Narric's comment about inconspicuous vehicles.
- Template weapons add a Klaxon Counter on a 4+, since flamers aren't exactly subtle.
- Some kind of alteration additional penalty to Bikes, Jetbikes and Jump Infantry (maybe they could be spotted at double distance in any turn they are used?).
- Turn limit.
- Something to allow sentries the possiblity of overwatch.
- When the alarm is raised, failing the aforementioned leadership test results in either in the unit falling back toward the central objective or being pinned.

I can't remember any other issue we came up with, so that's all for now unless someone think I missed something. Also, Narric, I won't have time to write up a battle report for our game. If you want to write one, that'd be great; if not I'll just summarise it here.

One final thing. If anyone want's to write a little snippet of fluff that could be included in the book that'd be greatly appreciated. I'm thinking along the lines of those small story boxes that are scattered throughout the various rulebooks.
Title: Re: Kill Team Revamped
Post by: Narric on October 14, 2013, 10:31:41 PM
The Bat-rep is already written. Its just schedules for wednesday on my blog. I'll like you via Facebook and here when it gets posted ;)

I did have a few more dieas, which I've written down in notepad. I'll paste them in for you to see.

I felt that someone will probably use the rulebook or codex traits, so i thought I'd come up with some that would hopefully work best for Kill Team, making up a couple and pinching some simpler ones from the rulebook.

I did the same for the "Kill Master" :P
Spoiler: Kill Master Traits (click to show/hide)

Lastly was an option for non-standard equipment
Spoiler: Kill Team Upgrades (click to show/hide)

Hope I've gien you some extra brain-fuel, even if it is something you may have considered before.
Title: Re: Kill Team Revamped
Post by: Mabbz on October 14, 2013, 11:12:34 PM
You know, I never once considered warlord traits for this? Good spot. I don't like the name kill master though. I'll probably go with Team Leader; I think it sounds better, and it provides a nice symmetry with Base Leader.

Here's a few more traits for consideration, possibly to replace the ones from the main rulebook:
Spoiler: New traits (click to show/hide)

As for the upgrades, something similar existed in the original kill team rules. I basically decided to replace them with narrative points and special terrain features, as I felt that most codexi had enough options available to render special equipment mostly unnecessary. Some of your ideas are fine, but I don't think there's enough to warrant another section for upgrades. As for what you've got...

Night vision goggles: fair enough. I personally would never use them, but they are a sensible addition.

Silenced Weaponry: again, fair enough.

Tranquilizer Rounds: I can't currently see any advantages to these rules. If you said that tranquilizers are automatically silenced then maybe.

Medipacks: I'd be more likely to add a medi-station as a terrain piece to be honest.

Non standard equipment: most armies already have units that can take similar weapons to all of these. I don't really see the point.
Title: Re: Kill Team Revamped
Post by: Narric on October 15, 2013, 12:53:51 PM
I like those Triats, they're good traits. :)

I've never seen the original Kill Team rules, so its cool to know I was thinkiing in the right direction :) Hadn't considered making Tranqs automatically Silent. IT would obviously double their cost. My idea for them came from the MGS games, where I constantly Tranq guards and sentries to sneak past them. I often did this well enough to clear an objective area without tripping any alarms.

A Medi-station does sound more likely. Sort'of surprised you didn't include them to begin with, looking at you rules again.

The non-standard equipment was mostly me just throwing an idea out there. It also has the disadvantage of not being that clear of what is replaced on the model.

Looking forward to seeing the next version. However, it would be cool if we could have another game, with me as the defender this time. Best you get experience from both sides of the board afterall ;)
Title: Re: Kill Team Revamped
Post by: Mabbz on October 15, 2013, 01:57:58 PM
The original rules were in the 4th ed rulebook. I've added quite a lot.

The tranq rules you wrote currently have no advantages over just shooting to kill, unless I'm misreading them ???.

I will add the medi station in the next update (although when that will be is anyone's guess).

I think I'll leave out the special wargear section unless I get several more items.

I would love another game. It'd have to wait until at least Friday though. Uni, work and birthdays are filling my time at the moment. I really need to start my coursework that is due in ten days time :P.

Title: Re: Kill Team Revamped
Post by: Mabbz on October 18, 2013, 11:52:05 PM
The latest update has arrived! Here is a link to the DeviantArt page (http://mabbz.deviantart.com/art/Warhammer-40-000-kill-team-revamp-343676495).

Changes:
- Introduction Page
- Layout Changes (I still have more to do, but I wanted to get this posted as soon as possible before the next playtest)
- Simplified corpse rules
- Minor changes to when Klaxon counters are gained
- Warlord traits
- Added Medical Station special terrain
- Slight change to how the "Still Not Dead" heroic action works
- Kill Teams now get 5 narrative points as standard, rather than 3

Now then, one thing I thought of when writing the introduction was that the name Kill Team is already taken by the original 4th edition rules and one of the Battle Missions. As such, to avoid confusion I am considering renaming the book itself to something else, possibly "Warhammer 40,000: Special Operations" or Spec Ops for short. I wouldn't change the rules themselves (a kill team would remain a kill team), just the rulebook as a whole.

Thoughts?

Oh, I just remembered I credited you, Narric, in the introduction section. I meant to ask you if that was Ok before posting it, but I forgot. If you want me to take you out then just let me know ;).
Title: Re: Kill Team Revamped
Post by: Narric on October 19, 2013, 07:26:51 AM
I'm ok with being credited. You could always add a link to my blog or DA page in the Artist box, that would be nice *subtle wink*

Most I can see wrong are some grammer and punctuation erros. You also have a random blank page (14), any reason for that? :P
Title: Re: Kill Team Revamped
Post by: Mabbz on October 19, 2013, 09:04:47 AM
I'm ok with being credited. You could always add a link to my blog or DA page in the Artist box, that would be nice *subtle wink*
Artist box? Do you mean the description section below the PDF?


Most I can see wrong are some grammer and punctuation erros. You also have a random blank page (14), any reason for that? :P
Dammit, I'm sure I got rid of that blank page :facepalm001:. I hadn't noticed any grammar and punctuation errors though, so if you could point them out that'd be great.
Title: Re: Kill Team Revamped
Post by: InsaneTD on October 28, 2013, 02:12:40 AM
What about jet/jump pack units that have the stealth and/or shroud usr? How do the changes effect those?
Title: Re: Kill Team Revamped
Post by: Mabbz on October 28, 2013, 02:44:42 AM
Hmm... Maybe I could say that cover saves may be taken to prevent Klaxon counters being earned. Obviously LoS terrain would only provide cover against being spotted, but area terrain and stealth/shrouded provide a save against any form of klaxon counter gain.

That won't be playtested until I get a few games with the latest rules in, but it's a good point. I already intended (and forgot) to write that LoS is needed to spot an enemy.
Title: Re: Kill Team Revamped
Post by: InsaneTD on October 28, 2013, 07:17:06 AM
The reason I ask was I was thinking stealth suits.
Title: Re: Kill Team Revamped
Post by: Mabbz on October 28, 2013, 09:34:56 AM
Well, in the current rules they get no advantage over any other model, which is a bit silly. If I add the rule from my last post, they would get a 5+ save against all instances of a klaxon counter being added, that could be improved by hiding in terrain.
Title: Re: Kill Team Revamped
Post by: Narric on November 18, 2013, 12:38:08 PM
Hey Mabbz, I had an idea for Kill Team.

As you an I know, when the Kill team playeris forced to go guns blazing, the Defending player racks up Klaxon counters like nobodies business. One thing that could give the Kill Team player a bit more chance is this:

"For every Sentry/Defending model killed by the KT player, the Defending players loses one Klaxon counter accrued earlier in the game."

This sort of works, as you remember our first game I killed a  model that had spotted mine, and had this rule been in place, I may have stood a better chance, both at controlling defending models but also getting past unaware sentries due to spotting distance being too short.

There are two other ways it could be used.
1. If the model that spotted the KT model is killed the Klaxon counter roll if successful must be re-rolled.
2. Klaxon counters may only be removed if the KT model is not within Spotting distance of a defending model.

Make sense? What do you think?
Title: Re: Kill Team Revamped
Post by: Mabbz on November 18, 2013, 02:44:32 PM
Hey Mabbz, I had an idea for Kill Team.

As you an I know, when the Kill team playeris forced to go guns blazing, the Defending player racks up Klaxon counters like nobodies business. One thing that could give the Kill Team player a bit more chance is this:

"For every Sentry/Defending model killed by the KT player, the Defending players loses one Klaxon counter accrued earlier in the game."

This sort of works, as you remember our first game I killed a  model that had spotted mine, and had this rule been in place, I may have stood a better chance, both at controlling defending models but also getting past unaware sentries due to spotting distance being too short.

There are two other ways it could be used.
1. If the model that spotted the KT model is killed the Klaxon counter roll if successful must be re-rolled.
2. Klaxon counters may only be removed if the KT model is not within Spotting distance of a defending model.

Make sense? What do you think?
I like the idea of being able to remove Klaxon counters. I'm not sure if killing sentries is the best way to do it though; I'd want the rule to promote stealth over slaughter. Perhaps:

"If no Klaxon counters are accrued over a full player turn, the Defending player loses one Klaxon counter accrued earlier in the game."

This still applies if sentries are aware, leaving the kill team with a dilemma: silence the sentry before he can raise the alarm, or hide and make the most of the element of surprise while you have it.

If I add a turn limit (I was thinking 8-10 turns...?) to ensure the KT wont just kill a sentry squad, hide until the heat dies down, rinse and repeat.
Title: Re: Kill Team Revamped
Post by: InsaneTD on November 18, 2013, 04:47:17 PM
Just say that you can't lose a klaxon counter two turns in a row.doubles the time it takes for them to disappear and you don't want to be just sitting around when you have the element of surprise. It makes it more likely you'll be found if you take longer. Having a couple time sensitive missions would be good as well. You don't always get the kind of time you want to do a mission.
Title: Re: Kill Team Revamped
Post by: Mabbz on November 18, 2013, 07:19:47 PM
Just say that you can't lose a klaxon counter two turns in a row.doubles the time it takes for them to disappear and you don't want to be just sitting around when you have the element of surprise. It makes it more likely you'll be found if you take longer. Having a couple time sensitive missions would be good as well. You don't always get the kind of time you want to do a mission.
Or to put it another way, they are lost every game turn that they stay quiet, rather than every player turn. I wont make a decision on that until I playtest it.

On a subject related to timed missions, I could do with a few more missions. So far we have Sabotage, Assassination, Hit & Run and Reconnaissance. Reconnaissance hasn't been tested, but the others are straight forward and seem fine so far. I'd like at least two more missions so you can just roll a d6 to choose one. The original rules had Escape (get from one side to the other) and Last Stand (Kill everything). I don't like Last Stand, but Escape would probably still work. Any ideas for other missions?
Title: Re: Kill Team Revamped
Post by: InsaneTD on November 19, 2013, 03:49:25 AM
How about extraction?

General idea: the kill team is being sent to help extract another team after a mission.

The team has say, four turns to get into position, getting as few Klaxon counters as possible (if you don't want too many models in game, then half of each players models start in reserve with the kill team half being the ones extracted, the defense ones are chasing/being sent to cut off the escape). They then have to wait d3 turns for the other team to show up, then have say, 6 turns to get out before their escape is cut off.

Alternate escape; the team have to secure the area during the rendezvous and wait for a vehicle to pick them up.


Also, Rescue.

General idea:the team is being sent in to rescue an important asset.

The team need to infiltrate a prison/hq and rescue someone (Captain/another team/spy/etc). They have to search for the prisoner(s) while getting as few klaxons as possible. Once they have found them, they have to then get out.
The defending player sets up a number of counters and the kill team have to look at each one to see if the rescuee is there. The defending player might know where he is or the team roll a d6 and the person to be rescued is there on a 4+. If they get too many klaxon counters then the enemy kill/move the prisoner(s) from the area.

Alternate scenario; the team has to go in and kidnap an enemy commander/official and need to subdue him before they can get it out.
Title: Re: Kill Team Revamped
Post by: Mabbz on November 19, 2013, 10:58:26 AM
Rescue is one I'd considered before, but I was concerned that it was too close to hit and run. Having the rescuee executed if the Klaxons get to high is a nice twist, though. I will most likely use it.

As for extraction, I'm a bit confused about how your idea would work, but it gave me inspiration for something similar:

The defender splits his forces in half. The Kill team gets to choose which half starts on the board and which is in reserves. The defender sets up half his force as normal, then the KT chooses one board edge to arrive from. The KT arrives from reserves in turn one, the second half of the defender's force arrives from the same edge in turn three. The defender starts with two klaxon counters, all his sentries are activated from the start, and cannot drop below one. The Kill Team has to survive for the full time limit, at which point they are extracted and win. Getting to a specific location to be extracted is another possible rule.


Another thing to think about: secondary objectives. In the next update, I intend to do a complete overhaul of the missions so they work on a victory points basis. So I need to come up with points for each primary objective, as well as some secondary objectives. Here's what I have so far:

Kill Team secondary objectives:
Slay the Base Leader. The Kill Team gets a victory point if they kill the Base Leader.

Ghosts. The Kill Team gets a victory point if the defender never has more than 3 Klaxon counters at any point in the game, and the alarm isn't raised.

No-one left behind. The Kill Team gets a victory point if they do not lose a single model.

Defender secondary objectives:
Slay the Team Leader. The Defender gets a victory point if they kill the Team Leader.

Payed with blood. The Defender gets a victory point if at least half the Kill Team is killed.

They won't get far. The Defender gets a victory point if the alarm is raised.
Title: Re: Kill Team Revamped
Post by: Narric on November 21, 2013, 12:45:10 AM
My idea for making the Kill Team a bit stronger, was increasing their points cap. Even before hitting max of ten models, its all too easy to hit the points cap, especially with more resilient/techy armies like (Chaos) Space Marines. However, keep the 10-man cap.

Of course if this goes through, the Defence team should have an increase as well, but not as much. Maybe 300:200 for Defenders:Kill Team? 300 also brings the Defending side closer to what a Combat patrol would be, and more people would be familiar/comfortable at that level. Increasing the Kill Team allowance to 200pts means they can squeeze in those two extra people, who could tip the balance in their favour, or add that one tactics changing piece of wargear.

Doing this would make the Kill Team player have to decide more strategically with the army list alone, which means more thought out lists, and potentially stronger lists. you've seen with mine that I try to keep to a single squad, mostly because multiple squads gets confusing and complex, but also becuase a single squad is easier to max out with ten models.

What do you think?
Title: Re: Kill Team Revamped
Post by: Mabbz on November 21, 2013, 01:05:05 AM
Ah, points limits. That's probably the one thing I'd want to playtest separately to any other rules changes. If we do decide to test your idea, it won't be until after we've had a couple of games with the next update.

Your reasoning looks good. I'll be honest, the only reason the limit on Kill Teams is 160pts is because that's what it was in the original rules. If changing it helps, then I have no problem with doing so. As long as playtesting indicates it's an improvement, I'll do it.

The Defender's point limit has equally poor justification. The original rules didn't let you choose the defender's forces at all; you picked an army and used a bunch of basic troops and a leader, the number and type of which were fixed in the rules (18 gun drones + shas'ui, 15 space marines + veteran sergeant, etc.). Most of them came to ~230-250pts, so I picked 250 on a whim, intending to balance it with special rules and the like.

In short, we'll try it at some point and see how it goes.
Title: Re: Kill Team Revamped
Post by: Narric on November 21, 2013, 01:11:25 AM
Sounds fair enough :)
Title: Re: Kill Team Revamped
Post by: Mabbz on December 07, 2013, 09:52:01 PM
Something new to discuss. I was considering writing a section to let people use Kill Teams as part of a Defence force, or even in regular games of 40k. The idea's simple enough, I'd just rule that they can be taken as an elite's choice, gain the infiltrate USR (useless in kill team game, only used in regular 40k) and lose the independant character rule (if one of the team is the Base Leader, he would regain it).

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Kill Team Revamped
Post by: Mabbz on December 17, 2013, 02:13:36 PM
I've not felt too good recently, but I finally got round to doing this. Version 1.3 is here (http://mabbz.deviantart.com/art/Warhammer-40-000-kill-team-revamp-343676495). Why 1.3? Because I checked this thread and found two other update posts which are now 1.1 and 1.2.

Anyways, here's the list of changes. I haven't added any new scenarios yet, but that is on its way. Also, I just realised I need to change the contents page, so that'll happen soon too.

V1.3 change list
- Started properly keeping track of updates :P
- Layout fix (removed blank page)
- Cover saves may prevent klaxon counter being accrued
- Kill Teams may reduce the klaxon count by avoiding detection
- Points limits changed
- Removed roster sheet (people tend to make their own anyway)
- ‘Playing a Game’ section added
- Victory points for primary and secondary mission objectives added
Title: Cover Operations (a kill team remake)
Post by: Mabbz on December 22, 2013, 09:18:32 PM
Due to the fact that Kill Team is already a name GW has used on numerous occasions, including a new release this christmas, I am going to rename this project. Henceforth, this shall be...


Warhammer 40,000: Covert Ops
Title: Re: Cover Operations (a kill team remake)
Post by: Narric on December 22, 2013, 09:20:12 PM
I likey the new name ^_^

If I play this irl, I'm going to use my Black Ops Exo-lords exclusively :P
Title: Re: Cover Operations (a kill team remake)
Post by: Mabbz on January 09, 2014, 10:51:31 PM
Right then, I've been working on the next update, and there's only a couple of things that need doing. The main thing is working out exactly which missions to leave in. I want 6 missions, and here are the ideas I have so far:

1: Sabotage (blow up the objective)
2: Assassinate (kill the objective)
3: Hit and Run (reach the objective, then escape)
4: Reconnaisance (circle around the objective)
5: Rescue (reach the objective, then escort him/her/it from the board)
6: Extract (one kill team model starts on one side of the board, the rest starts at the other. Get the loner across the board safely)
7: Diversion (give the defender as many klaxon counters as possible to win)
8: Hold the Line (kill team has to defend something for a change)

So far, only the first four have been playtested (actually, I'm not sure we've done assassinate). The top three will probably stay in no matter what which leaves the question of which of the others to use. Thoughts?



I'm planning on adding a quick reference page and a back cover next update, but there's some other things I'd like to add. The first is a proper front cover, with some kind of artwork. Sadly I can't do art, so I'll probably have to get someone else to do that.

The second is fluff. I have quite a bit of white space that needs filling, probably mostly with short fluff snippets (at most one side of A4). I could also use more artwork for these gaps, or even some nice photos of some models trying to be all sneaky. I can do some fluff myself, but I have no camera and as I said art is beyond me.

Lastly, I would like to include a sort of battle report. Nothing massive, just something like that two page snapshot from right near the front of the main rulebook.

I'll probably post some of these requests in other parts of the forum to get more responses.
Title: Re: Cover Operations (a kill team remake)
Post by: Narric on January 09, 2014, 11:28:46 PM
I can think of a few names on DeviantART that do some pretty good 40k Artwork. However I'm not sure if they would do it on request. I can note you their accounts on DA if it helps, and you can contact them directly. it'll be much faster than me acting as middle man ;)

For fluff, we need more Bat-Reps by narrative Bat-Rep writers :P I think only more exposure would help with that ^_^;;

You and I have both done Bat-Reps for this, however I don't think they'd be as good as an actual Tabletop Bat-Rep.

With Regards to the Missions, I think you/we should playtes them first before throwing out longer standing ones. I personally do not like Recon, but thats probably my playstyle showing :P
Title: Re: Covert Operations (a kill team remake)
Post by: InsaneTD on January 15, 2014, 12:25:19 AM
Recon is from the original rules. Diversion sounds very fun in theory, wouldn't mind playing that, just need someone to play it with. :P

I might have a try at a bit of fluff if that's cool. Just a couple paragraphs.
Title: Re: Covert Operations (a kill team remake)
Post by: Mabbz on January 15, 2014, 10:22:25 AM
For fluff, we need more Bat-Reps by narrative Bat-Rep writers :P I think only more exposure would help with that ^_^;;

You and I have both done Bat-Reps for this, however I don't think they'd be as good as an actual Tabletop Bat-Rep.
I've tried to adapt one of our batreps into a fluff piece, so that might show up next update. More would be nice though.

Quote
With Regards to the Missions, I think you/we should playtest them first before throwing out longer standing ones. I personally do not like Recon, but thats probably my playstyle showing :P
I'm not throwing any out yet, just noting down what missions there are. Nothing will be thrown out until every mission has been tested. And to be honest, I'm not keen on recon either, even if it is the only one the kill team has won so far.

Recon is from the original rules.
Yes, recon is from the original, but that doesn't guarantee it'll stay in. It's a bit fiddly remembering how far around the objective each model has gone and it's also probably one of the hardest missions. I only won because I took vespid and could simply Hit and Run my way around it. Even then I think I lost all but one model.

Quote
Diversion sounds very fun in theory, wouldn't mind playing that, just need someone to play it with. :P
If you have VASSAL then I'd be happy to give you a game at some point. Just let me know when you're free and we can organise something.

Quote
I might have a try at a bit of fluff if that's cool. Just a couple paragraphs.
Awesome. Either post it here or post me a link when it's done.



For playtesting purposes, I'm going to post the newer missions here:

Spoiler: Rescue (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Extract (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Diversion (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Hold the Line (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Covert Operations (a kill team remake)
Post by: InsaneTD on January 17, 2014, 03:46:52 AM
Infiltration.

Joe was looking through the sights of his Hellgun and watching several of the Xeno guards standing at the corner of the building his squad had to infiltrate. He hit the transmit button on his comm unit three times, listening to all the responding clicks from his squad. He looked at his chrono and clicked his comm twice, sighting down his Hellgun and firing on the Xeno guard closest to him. The three Xenos fell almost simultaneously, as the crack from the three Hellguns sounded in his ears, followed by a whip crack sound as his squads sniper fired at the camps commander.

He was up and moving, trying to stay in shadows and cover while looking for more guards. He spotted two more of his men moving towards of the objective as he heard another whip crack sound, the body of one of the Xenos falling out the shadows just ahead of him. He'd have to buy the man a drink when they got back to civilisation.

He and three of his men were standing just in front of the building now, they only had a few minutes until more Xenos arrived, in that time they had to open this building and get the Chimera Carrier out of here. He didn't know why some common troop carrier was important enough that his squad had to come and get it. He and one other trooper kept watch outside as two men went inside to get the vehicle as he heard another whip crack. The sniper picking off another of the bases guards.

There was a roar from inside as the troop carrier started, then it roared again as it slammed into the garage door and then stopped just outside, he quickly got on board with the other trooper. The Machine took off, heading to were they had left the sniper.



Ending up being bigger then I thought it would be but it was easy to write. Feel free to use it or not as you like.
Title: Re: Covert Operations (a kill team remake)
Post by: Mabbz on January 17, 2014, 09:17:17 AM
Looks good to me. I'll almost certainly use it.

On a related note, I've asked for more fluffy stuff here (http://secondsphere.org/index.php?topic=1665.0). Don't want to clog up a rules thread with fluff, after all.
Title: Re: Covert Operations (a kill team remake)
Post by: InsaneTD on January 17, 2014, 09:19:06 AM
Hadn't seen that, I'll keep that in mind for future. ;)

Edit, Oh, for the credit, put me down as Tybalt Defet.

Edit the second: I changed how the characters name is spelt.
Title: Re: Covert Operations (a kill team remake)
Post by: Mabbz on March 01, 2014, 09:35:32 PM
Version 1.4 is here! (http://mabbz.deviantart.com/art/Warhammer-40-000-kill-team-revamp-343676495) Sorry it took forever, university was distracting me from the important things in life :P

V1.4 change list
- Changed name to Covert Operations
- Fixed contents page
- Fortifications are now placed by the player’s that bought them, rather than all being placed by the defender
- Shield generators can now be destroyed
- Added more scenarios
- Added reference page
- Added back cover
- Added long narrative piece (Blood in the Night, by Narric)
- Added three short narrative pieces (two by Tybalt Defet and one by Chris)
- Added a random quote in the vehicle section
- Template weapons grant a klaxon counter on a 4+, not a 5+
- Template weapons are restricted for kill teams the same way as high strength weapons or weapons that can fire more than three shots

I'm still looking for stories, and I now have an official thread requesting photos and artwork (http://secondsphere.org/index.php?topic=1740.0) for the book. Also, what do you think I should add to the summary section? It's a bit empty at the moment, as I couldn't decide what needed to be in there.
Title: Re: Covert Operations (a kill team remake)
Post by: InsaneTD on March 02, 2014, 03:48:30 AM
I had a minor SQUEE moment when I got to my first piece. :P
Title: Re: Covert Operations (a kill team remake)
Post by: Mabbz on April 05, 2014, 10:42:51 PM
On a whim, I cross posted this on to DakkaDakka. Here's the link, if you're interested. (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/588364.page)
Title: Re: Covert Operations (a kill team remake)
Post by: Mabbz on January 23, 2015, 11:52:55 PM
So I got bored and started thinking about this again. My MLP RP is nearing an end (might even be done in a month or two :P) and I've often considered starting a roleplay with the Covert Operations rules. With that in mind, I've decided to cobble together some possible rules for such an RP. Incidentally, if someone else wants to start an RP with these rules, that is more than fine by me.


Making a team:
First come, first serve, perhaps with a points limit for individual characters (50 points max?). Admission ends when the standard points limit (200 points) has been exceeded. No need to worry about going a bit over; injuries will likely ruin the advantage anyway.

Narrative Points:
Ignore the usual rules, instead everyone starts with 3NP each (not automatically replenished between missions). Gain 1 per win. Composition rules are still used for the enemies NP pool, and may carry further penalties.

Injuries:
TPK in mission has some negative effect, perhaps?
2Dead
3Eye wound (-1Bs, permanent)
4-5Blood loss (miss next game)
6-8Flesh wound (no effect)
9-10Concussion (-1I, next game only)
11Leg wound (can’t run, permanent)
12Arm wound (-1Ws, permanent)

Special talents:
Maybe a points cost for these? Lost if the character dies.
-   Driver. Can drive any vehicle without penalty. Everyone else can only move or shoot with the vehicle unless it's from their codex.
-   Medic. Everyone else may re-roll on injury table provided he wasn’t injured himself, gives +1 to feel no pain rolls to his unit (6+ basic).
-   Leader. Counts as the Team Leader (rolls on traits table).
-   Scout. Gives estimate of enemy forces.
-   Sentry. Gain first turn against camp raids

The Campaign:
A world/system/sector is embroiled in a war. The players make up a small group of independent operatives that will assist their side however they see fit (and inquisitor and warband, a techpriest and friends, a rogue trader etc.). GM gives an idea of the war’s situation; players choose where to go. Oh, and sometimes enemy patrols will find you, resulting in a pitched battle to escape.

For example, the GM could say “the Tyranids are pushing outwards from a series of spawning pools to the southwest. Strangely, they seem to be focusing on an uninhabited area of low strategic value. In addition, a lunatic to the east has been preaching that the xenos are our saviour and that we should submit to them. He has been stirring up the local populations to sabotage our forces.”

The players could then choose to destroy the pools (sabotage mission), investigate the area the Tyranids are heading for (reconnaissance mission) or kill the cult leader (assassinate mission). These missions might have a useful impact on the war, or they might not (the low value area might be important, or not). Either way, you might stumble across some useful items or information.

From there, the world evolves with the primary objectives altering the state of the war, while optional secondary objectives to give ideas for later missions (stumble across some secret plans, rescue prisoners with intel, capture and interrogate enemies etc.). All of which leads up to some grand finale mission.

There would be things to do between mission, like interrogating prisoners, dealing with requests from your allies or requesting things from them and the like. These would be done in character, so you get a chance to actually roleplay outside of combat.

Missions:
The player's decide what they're going to do in their turn (movement, shooting, psychic and assault phases), then the GM plays it out, followed by the enemy's turn. Players aren't limited to actions described in the rules; the GM would make up rules for performing unusual actions as and when they're needed (eg: if a player wants to push over a ladder, that could be a strength test that uses up your shooting phase). Some special actions may cost Narrative Points.
Title: Re: Covert Operations (a kill team remake)
Post by: Narric on January 23, 2015, 11:59:12 PM
I like the of these rules :D though maybe have the RP rules as a Separate thread to avoid confusion with the Tabletop Rules ;)

Would be interesting to see how a Wargame RP would play out. I vaguely remember someone doing a literally RP with their Models once :P
Title: Re: Covert Operations (a kill team remake)
Post by: Mabbz on January 24, 2015, 12:05:12 AM
If you want to separate them out, that's fine by me (or I suppose I could have these rules posted in two places at once...)

I believe it happened twice, once with marines and once with tau (I was an uber sniper in the tau one, that needed 40 turns to take out a single drone in melee :P). Also, if/when I actually do this, I'll make models specially for everyone.
Title: Re: Covert Operations (a kill team remake)
Post by: Narric on January 24, 2015, 12:17:09 AM
Nothing wrong with having the rules in to Seperate places. Though you could just cut the RP stuff out and make a link to the new thread. :)
Title: Re: Covert Operations (a kill team remake)
Post by: Mabbz on January 24, 2015, 12:26:54 AM
True. Still, I'm thinking of including these in with the main rules as a way to play non-RP campaigns too, so I think I'll leave it here if that's all right. It's remarkably easy to blur the line between playing a series of connected 40k battles and a narrative roleplay. Also I'm lazy and it's after midnight, so I'm going to sleep.