Sort of inspired by Mkoll's 6th Ed Nid thread. I currently just want to focus on the Characters for now. Before anyone jumps in. I don't want to look into Forge World or other new Characters. Just the ones as printed in our Current Codex.
Commander Farsight
WS-5 BS-4 S-5 T-4 W-4 I-5 A-4 Ld-10 Sv-3+
Wargear
XV8 Battlesuit, Plasma Rifle, Shield Generator, Target Lock, Bonding Knife
Dawn Blade
Range- Melee Str-User AP-1 Type-Melee, Armourbane, Master-crafted
Special Rules
Independant Character, Night Vision, Very Bulky, Deep Strike, Hammer of Wrath, Hatred (Orks), Relentless
Ork Fighters - In a primary detachment that includes Farsight, all units gain Preferred Enemy (Orks). This includes Farsight himself.
Breakaway Faction - A Primary Detachment that includes Farisght may not be allied to any other army. In addition, only Tau units may be selected from Codex: Tau Empire
Blood Brothers - in a Primary Detachment that includes Farsight, and model with access to a Bonding Knife may equip it for free.
Commander Shadowsun
WS-4 BS-5 S-4 T-4 W-3 I-4 A-4 Ld-10 Sv-3+
Wargear
Dual Fusion Blasters, Command and Control Node, Drone Controller, 2x Shield Drones
XV22 Battlesuit - Confers a 3+ Armour Save. Shadowsun's Strength and Toughness are increased to 4. It also has a built in Stealth Field Generator.
Command and Control Node - All friendly units within 12" may use Shadowsun's unmodified Leadership for any Leadership based checks. If the unit is falling back, it automatically regroups at the start of the next Tau player turn, provided it is within the Control Nodes range. It may then act as normal, with no penalties.
Command-Link Drone - Increases the range of the Command and Control Node by 6". This bonus is removed upon the destruction of the Command-link Drone.
Advanced Targeting System - Shadowsun may use both her Fusion Blasters in the same shooting phase, and may choose two seperate Targets.
Special rules
Independant Character, Night Vision, Bulky, Deep Strike, Relentless, Infiltrate, Jink
Aun'va | WS-1 BS-3 S-2 T-5 W-4 I-1 A-1 Ld-10 Sv-4+
Guard | WS-4 BS-4 S-5 T-5 W-2 I-3 A-3 Ld-9 Sv-4+
Wargear
Aun'va | Warrior Armour, Pulse Pistol
Paradox of Duality
Makes Aun'va and his Guard Toughness 5.
Has the following profile in combat:
Str-User AP- Type-Melee, Specialist Weapon, Two handed
Guard | Warrior Armour, Pulse Pistol, Ethereal Honour Blade
Vambrace Blades - Any enemy model targeting Aun'va or either of the Guard equipped with only combat weapons, reduces their Attacks by D3 (to a minimum of 1). This reflects the Guard catching the enemy weapons, and preventing them from being used 100% effectively.
Special Rules
Aun'va | Adamantium Will, Fearless, Extremely Bulky
Supreme Ethereal - All Tau units in the Army gain the Crusader Special rule. This is lost upon the death of Aun'va. In addition, upon Aun'va's Death, all Tau units musat take a Morale Check. Regardless of result, all Tau units gain Preferred Enemy and Hatred against the army that killed Aun'va (Against Allied armies, both/all enemy detachments are the target).
Guard | Crusader, Counter-Attack, Fearless
Eternal Guard - Upon Aun'va's Death, he becomes a movable objective. Any remianing Guards must attempt to move Aun'va's reamins to the edge of the board. So long as at least one Guard is alive with Aun'va's remains, the opponent does not gain any Victory Points.
1. What are the points costs for these guys? I'm assuming they'll have been tweaked too.
2. The Dawn Blade should be AP2. AP1 is excessive as you already have Armourbane, you don't need the +2 on the damage table too. :P
3. What does the Command and Control node do?
4. What does Crusader do?
5. Aun'va shouldn't be movable after death, he should simply count as a normal objective. Otherwise it's far too easy to simply move into cover, go to ground and deny your opponent a victory point they've already earned.
1. I left points out, becuase that would make people think along certain lines.
2. OK, good point
3. I think I added that in last minute. Its basically "Inspiring Presence" from the core rulebook, plus a little bit more. I hope it would become an expensive but highly useful upgrade.
4. See the Special Rules in the Rulebook.
5. Cover doesn't save you from assaults. I guess simply making him an Objective would be simpler.
I've actually re thought Aun'va's rule "Supreme Ethereal." I had a quick go over regular ethereal rules, and got this rule. Bear in mind I wrote it for a Regular Ethereal, hence why its different to Aun'va, but for now assume its Aun'va rule, if you want.:
Ethereal Presence
All Tau Units with Line of Sight, regardless of distance, gain the Stubborn special Rule as describe in the Rulebook. This is lost upon the Ethereals death. In addition, when the Ethereal Dies, All Tau units (including units not yet deployed) must take a Morale Check, and gain the Preferred Enemy special rule for the rest of the game. Units which had Line of Sight to the Ethereal take the check at -2 Leadership. Units not deployed before the Ethereals death, that are coming in as Reserves, are at -1 to theior Reserve Rolls.
Aun'va should work the way Bjorn does: on death, he becomes an Objective. If the mission being played does not use Objectives, holding the Aun'Va Objective does not grant any Victory Points.
If the Tau player does not control the Aun'va Objective at the end of the game, the best result they can claim is a draw.
Alrighty then. I can see how that is lines easier :P
Does anybody have any other ideas relating to our trio of characters?
What if Aun'Va became a Relic instead of an Objective?
Also, would you plan to do the older SCs like Anghor Prok?
Quote from: Charistoph on January 02, 2013, 04:16:15 PM
What if Aun'Va became a Relic instead of an Objective?
Can't find my copy of the rulebook, so I'm not sure what the difference is.
QuoteAlso, would you plan to do the older SCs like Anghor Prok?
I could try. I have a PDF with a lot of the stuff from 3rd. So much removed.... So much lost....
Quote from: Narric of 4th Sphere on January 02, 2013, 04:40:33 PM
Quote from: Charistoph on January 02, 2013, 04:16:15 PM
What if Aun'Va became a Relic instead of an Objective?
Can't find my copy of the rulebook, so I'm not sure what the difference is.
A Relic is an Objective that can be moved, albeit, very slowly. A whole 6th Edition mission is based on it.
Quote from: Narric of 4th Sphere on January 02, 2013, 04:40:33 PM
QuoteAlso, would you plan to do the older SCs like Anghor Prok?
I could try. I have a PDF with a lot of the stuff from 3rd. So much removed.... So much lost....
Yes, so much. Sadly, Anghor wasn't in the 3rd Ed book, but in WD.
I may have to make a poll to decide between Relic and Objective then.
I see I don't have Prok. However, I do have a copy of 5th ed Kroot Merc army list, which includes Prok. Might be a good starting point, but if someone can point me to his original rules, I think it would be better.
Currently I've already got a rough draft of Aun'shi, and I'll post him shortly.
I think objective works better for Aun. If your opponent has already earned the victory point by killing him you shouldn't be able to drag him out of weapons range and deny your opponent that way. Especially as he already has a 2+ Look Out Sir to protect him on top of his saves. Add that to the precedent of Bjorn becoming an objective and it makes it more balanced and easier to justify. Saying you can move him off board to deny our opponent something they've already earned is almost petulant.
Maybe, but there's a bit of difference between securing the hulk of a Dreadnought and the body of a Tau.
Damn ninjas :P. Yeah, a single body is pretty easy to move. A tomb on legs, turned into a tank? Not so much.
Quote from: Charistoph on January 02, 2013, 06:44:30 PM
Maybe, but there's a bit of difference between securing the hulk of a Dreadnought and the body of a Tau.
There is, I'm not denying that, but Bjorn's rules outright state that if the Space Wolf player doesn't have control of Bjorn at the end of the game the best they can do is draw. Factor in that the Tau benefit from Aun'va's death by gaining Preferred Enemy and Hatred and it seems a bit silly to be able to run away and yell "Well we still have his body so it's all ok" on top of that.
Like I said, the guy's not exactly easy to kill, being surrounded by medium armour, not being a major threat and having a 2+ Look Out Sir before his own armour's needed, being able to drag him out of main weapons fire to deny a reasonably hard earned kill point seems excessive to me. Also, if he becomes an objective it's easier to explain why he denies the victory point, he's not dead, just seriously wounded and his guards are tending to his wounds. you virtually never move a seriously injured person until they're stabilised, which isn't likely to be possible until after the battle.
Objective is simpler, more sensible, easier to justify and there's precedent.
There may be a difference between a Dreadnought sarcophagus and an old Tau, but a little imagination can easily explain away the difference. For example, it may be the case that carrying him around might result in killing him, whereas leaving him where he is until medi-drones arrive would not.
Alternatively, the 'objective' may not just be Aun'va, but the equipment he has with him; the Ethereal himself is quite important, but allowing his Popemobile to be captured may result in extremely sensitive information to fall into enemy hands, effectively crushing any hope the Tau have of future victories in the campaign. Hell, Aun'va might need the Popemobile for life support - remove him from it and he'll die anyway!
Well there are 2 ways of looking at it.
1: Aun'Va becomes an immobile objective at the moment of his death. The enemy gets 1 VP but cannot claim Slay The Warlord unless they hold his objective at games end.
2: Aun'Va is treated as a Relic. He can be moved up to 6" a turn. The enemy gains both the VP for killing him and the VP for Slay The Warlord, but can gain a 3rd for securing his body. If the Tau manage to escape with the body, they gain a VP. The unit carrying Aun'Va leaves the table with him and plays no further part in the battle.
one thing I'll add. Though I havent updated him yet. I believe that just giving the Tau player PE and Hatred is a terrible design flaw and one I realised looking at the rank-and-file Ethereals so I figured a negative reaction should be had to the Ethereals death. My ideas was that any units off-board coming in on reserve would have a -1 modifier to their reserve rolls (possibly including the usage of the Positional Relay).
I find it weird to say "Lets make a unit that the controlling player WANTS TO DIE" it just doesn't fit right ih my head. When a character of such importance dies, there should be good and bad outcomes and both should be equal in their magnitude to the army.
In all honesty, I dont think the Ethereals should EVER be on the battle field. As somebody once put it "It's like the President of the United States going to the frontlines armed with the nameplate from his desk."
They are NOT soldiers, not are they made for battlefield roles.
What do you suggest should fill their place? Or maybe Special Characters could be adapted to fill the same role of "Inspirational & Spiritual Leader"
I can't remember off the top of my head, but were Ethereals ever a combat unit in Dawn of War?
They were a support unit that allowed souped up Firewarriors to be taken.
Other Crisis/Hazard Commanders should be availiable. Commander Puretide for example is legendary. Battlesuit commanders are practically bred for war and combat and equipped especially for that purpose with the best the Empire can provide.
Taking an Ethereal is like taking a beureucrat who is just going to spend the time getting shot at and calling the men "Jolly good chaps.".
Fashion up a few new commanders from somewhere. We could probably invent a few for you, if you wanted.
Historically, unwise units being present on the field, or acceptable units behaving stupidly, is often intended to provide a morale boost.
For example, during the Three Kingdoms era one of the commanders supposedly rode into battle with no armour on. The exact reason eludes me, but it was something along the lines of "those archers couldn't hit the broad side of a barn!", and so his men were encouraged by the bravado of their leader.
Ethereals likely work in the same way; their lack of actual combat ability is made up for by the fact that they convince the Tau army victory is assured just by being there! As such, the Ethereal should be boosting the army while alive, but have a penalty for dying (turns out the Orks can hit us from all the way over there).
But how can that be achieved without the Penalty for the Ethereal's death actually turning into something Tau players want, such as wat it is currently.
My counter-thought to you wargamer, is that though Orks couldn't hit the broadside of a bullet with a barn, they can still turn your skull to blue paste if you get to close. Charging forward "on your steed of choice" may make your army feel more confident about victory and/or combat, but if your opponent likes a challenge (Orks), they're going to charge at you with equal force/enthusiasm, to what your army has just gained in itself. Overall, there is no difference, and possibly you're more likely to have your army going home in a closed casket.
Quote from: Railgun Convention on January 02, 2013, 10:02:38 PM
Fashion up a few new commanders from somewhere. We could probably invent a few for you, if you wanted.
LEts stick to Current Characters for now. Fan-made characters could probably be a thread unto themselves. I know I have a few ideas, and most of them aren't even for HQ.
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on January 02, 2013, 08:49:47 PM
They were a support unit that allowed souped up Firewarriors to be taken.
Could something similar to IG Vets be made then? You have a squad of Veteran Fire Warriors, and they're Lead by an Ethereal.
[/quote]Other Crisis/Hazard Commanders should be availiable. Commander Puretide for example is legendary.[/quot]The trick for Puretide is that (as far as I know) there is no mention of the wargear he had when he was on active duty. The most mention of him I remember is him as a Trainer of Farsight and Shadowsun.
QuoteBattlesuit commanders are practically bred for war and combat and equipped especially for that purpose with the best the Empire can provide.
Taking an Ethereal is like taking a beureucrat who is just going to spend the time getting shot at and calling the men "Jolly good chaps.".
I like this analogy. Can't really say much more than that :P
A couple thoughts:
1) What if Aun'va provided ATSKNF to all Tau while on the board. When dead, Morale Checks every turn. If passed, Hatred and old Rage (Move, Run, Charge towards nearest enemy) comes in to play. This overrides any other Ethereals Price of Failure.
2) Ethereals really need a Shield Generator, even if it's a 5+, and the Pope can surely fit a normal one in that massive john.
Fluffwise, the death of an Ethereal causes the Tau to advance slowly and relentlessy towards the enemy, unloading ammo in to them until they are dead, or the ammo runs out entirely. Having a rule that forces them to run into CC is against both Tau fluff in general and the result of an ethereal being killed in specific.
1) This isn't just any Ethereal, though, and the rules were written for melee-only Preferred Enemy.
2) Fluff can be rewritten (sadly)
3) At least it's not an upside to his dying.
Let's just go for a basic concept and work from there:
"Inspiring Presence:" As long as the Ethereal is alive, all non-vehicle Tau units (excluding Drones) within 12" benefit from the following special rules: And They Shall Know No Fear, Stubborn.
"Price of Failure:" If the Ethereal is killed, all non-vehicle Tau units (excluding Drones) within 12"must immediately pass a morale check or fall back.
Aun'va, for now, simply has an army-wide version of these rules.
I actually feel comfortable with that.
So with Aun'va and Ethereals taken care of, what about our Codex Characters; Shadowsun and Farsight?
I think everybody jumped into the discussion about Aun'va and Ethereals, so here is what I Op'd with:
Commander Farsight
WS-5 BS-4 S-5 T-4 W-4 I-5 A-4 Ld-10 Sv-3+
Wargear
XV8 Battlesuit, Plasma Rifle, Shield Generator, Target Lock, Bonding Knife
Dawn Blade
Range- Melee Str-User AP-1 Type-Melee, Armourbane, Master-crafted
Special Rules
Independant Character, Night Vison, Very Bulky, Deep Strike, Hammer of Wrath, Hatred (Orks), Relentless
Ork Fighters - In a primary detachment that includes Farsight, all units gain Preferred Enemy (Orks). This includes Farsight himself.
Breakaway Faction - A Primary Detachment that uncludes Farisght may not be allied to any other army. In addition, only Tau units may be selected from Codex: Tau Empire
Blood Brothers - in a Primaryu detachment that includes farsight, and model with access to a Bonding Knife may equpip it for free.
Commander Shadowsun
WS-4 BS-5 S-4 T-4 W-3 I-4 A-4 Ld-10 Sv-3+
Wargear
Dual Fusion Blasters, Command and Control Node, Drone Controller, 2x Shield Drones
XV22 Battlesuit - Confers a 3+ Armour Save. Shadowsun's Strength and Toughness are increased to 4. It also has a built in Stealth Field Generator.
Command and Control Node - All friendly units within 12" may use Shadowsun's unmodified Leadership for any Leadership based checks. If the unit is falling back, it automatically regroups at the start of the next Tau player turn, provided it is within the Control Nodes range. It may then act as normal, with no penalties.
Command-Link Drone - Increases the range of the Command and Control Node by 6". This bonus is removed upon the destruction of the Command-link Drone.
Advanced Targeting System - Shadowsun may use both her Fusion Blasters in the same shooting phase, and may choose two seperate Targets.
Special rules
Independant Character, Night Vision, Bulky, Deep Strike, Relentless, Infiltrate, Jink
I would like to see Aun'Shi from the last codex. He would do really well in a challenge especially if his fire warriors are cheering him on. In a chalenge with 12 fire warriors and something like a single archon he would be unkillable. The Archon would only have roughly 2 attacks to hit him and he will have 2 re rolls on his +4 invulnerable. Killing him at range would be the best option which Tau is supposedto excell at. I still have his model which is nicely painted and would like to use him again. At least in fluff tell us what happen to him. I think he should be included back as a character since he was a founding Tau character along with O'Shova and I think Anglar Proc( which whould be cool to have him back too, although I can't remember if he was a white dwarf or codex character)
O'Shova army I would like the 5 point ws and I upgrade back. Too exepnsive on fire warriors, but was very useful on bodyguard and upgraded character suits. I think the upgrade for me at least would be nice to have again or something similar besides having preferred enemy orcs. O'Shova troops are supposedly more close combat orientated. I get the Orc thing, but feel it would be a generalized stat change like the orignial book version was.
The Dawn blade I always felt it should provide somethin like armourbane. His only weapon besides that is a plasma and besides that he lacks anti-vehicle which makes him less appealing.
I think he should go back to having bs 5 since he is still Tau and I doubt his plasma skills have gotten worst. I would like him to be WS 6 though. His fluff I think would support the 6. I think 4 is typically almost average, 5 is like typical sargents, and 6 is your heroes and higher. Without looking 4 is the norm for a tau Shas'O and from the older book they could be 5 on par with O'Shova. I could be wrong since I am not looking at my books at the moment. O'Shova is the exception and I think he should surpass any other Tau's WS which Aun'shi had a 5 I think.
Another thought into O'Shova is that I think his personal body guard at least should have better melee stats. Not ranging into 7 which I thought was silly. His personal guard may or should have access to close combat weapons( not power).
Also ap 1 seems a bit much for the Dawn Blade. I would go with a 2 which seems fair. A one is simply vehicle destruction. Bad enough you have ranged weapons that's ap1 and now a suit commander with the same level or more destructive power than a rail gun.
I think he should have 5 attacks or have the O's lowered to 3. Since FW have toughness 5 suits I think he should be toughness 5. Although he has left the empire and doesn't have acess to the. Ithink t 5, eternal warrior, or a +3 invulnerable would be good options for him to have. One of the 3 would make him more durable and a more capable close combat unit while at the same time not as powerful as an Archon.
Why should he get Hammer of Wraith??? His suit type doesn't provide it and what makes him spcial enough to get it.
The other two characters I wish they do to them what they did to Aun'Shi if you want my opinion about them.
Quote from: Chicop76 on January 03, 2013, 08:24:50 PM
I would like to see Aun'Shi from the last codex. He would do really well in a challenge especially if his fire warriors are cheering him on. In a chalenge with 12 fire warriors and something like a single archon he would be unkillable. The Archon would only have roughly 2 attacks to hit him and he will have 2 re rolls on his +4 invulnerable. Killing him at range would be the best option which Tau is supposedto excell at. I still have his model which is nicely painted and would like to use him again. At least in fluff tell us what happen to him. I think he should be included back as a character since he was a founding Tau character along with O'Shova and I think Anglar Proc( which whould be cool to have him back too, although I can't remember if he was a white dwarf or codex character)
Why on earth would an Archon only have 2 attacks???They start with 4, and are weapon skill 7 so he'd have more than 2 hits too.
Quote from: Chicop76 on January 03, 2013, 08:24:50 PM
O'Shova army I would like the 5 point ws and I upgrade back. Too exepnsive on fire warriors, but was very useful on bodyguard and upgraded character suits. I think the upgrade for me at least would be nice to have again or something similar besides having preferred enemy orcs. O'Shova troops are supposedly more close combat orientated. I get the Orc thing, but feel it would be a generalized stat change like the orignial book version was.
The Dawn blade I always felt it should provide somethin like armourbane. His only weapon besides that is a plasma and besides that he lacks anti-vehicle which makes him less appealing.
I think he should go back to having bs 5 since he is still Tau and I doubt his plasma skills have gotten worst. I would like him to be WS 6 though. His fluff I think would support the 6. I think 4 is typically almost average, 5 is like typical sargents, and 6 is your heroes and higher. Without looking 4 is the norm for a tau Shas'O and from the older book they could be 5 on par with O'Shova. I could be wrong since I am not looking at my books at the moment. O'Shova is the exception and I think he should surpass any other Tau's WS which Aun'shi had a 5 I think.
Another thought into O'Shova is that I think his personal body guard at least should have better melee stats. Not ranging into 7 which I thought was silly. His personal guard may or should have access to close combat weapons( not power).
I disagree, the whole point of the Tau is that they don't do combat. If they can suddenly purchase high WS suits because of Farsight they lose the main weakness of the codex. You want combat potential? Allies are there for that. If Farsight stops you taking allies, make up for it with your shooting. Access to combat weapons, fair enough, but boosted stats shouldn't come into it.
Also, as I posted initially, I agree that the Dawn Blade should be AP2 if it's getting an AP value.
The other thing to consider here is are the points costs for these guys changing at all? It's all well and good us coming up with rules and ideas left right and centre, but it we don't know what kind of points we're looking at it's all a bit pointless really.
Quote from: Warmaster Russ on January 03, 2013, 08:46:52 PM
Quote from: Chicop76 on January 03, 2013, 08:24:50 PM
I would like to see Aun'Shi from the last codex. He would do really well in a challenge especially if his fire warriors are cheering him on. In a chalenge with 12 fire warriors and something like a single archon he would be unkillable. The Archon would only have roughly 2 attacks to hit him and he will have 2 re rolls on his +4 invulnerable. Killing him at range would be the best option which Tau is supposedto excell at. I still have his model which is nicely painted and would like to use him again. At least in fluff tell us what happen to him. I think he should be included back as a character since he was a founding Tau character along with O'Shova and I think Anglar Proc( which whould be cool to have him back too, although I can't remember if he was a white dwarf or codex character)
Why on earth would an Archon only have 2 attacks???They start with 4, and are weapon skill 7 so he'd have more than 2 hits too.
Quote from: Chicop76 on January 03, 2013, 08:24:50 PM
O'Shova army I would like the 5 point ws and I upgrade back. Too exepnsive on fire warriors, but was very useful on bodyguard and upgraded character suits. I think the upgrade for me at least would be nice to have again or something similar besides having preferred enemy orcs. O'Shova troops are supposedly more close combat orientated. I get the Orc thing, but feel it would be a generalized stat change like the orignial book version was.
The Dawn blade I always felt it should provide somethin like armourbane. His only weapon besides that is a plasma and besides that he lacks anti-vehicle which makes him less appealing.
I think he should go back to having bs 5 since he is still Tau and I doubt his plasma skills have gotten worst. I would like him to be WS 6 though. His fluff I think would support the 6. I think 4 is typically almost average, 5 is like typical sargents, and 6 is your heroes and higher. Without looking 4 is the norm for a tau Shas'O and from the older book they could be 5 on par with O'Shova. I could be wrong since I am not looking at my books at the moment. O'Shova is the exception and I think he should surpass any other Tau's WS which Aun'shi had a 5 I think.
Another thought into O'Shova is that I think his personal body guard at least should have better melee stats. Not ranging into 7 which I thought was silly. His personal guard may or should have access to close combat weapons( not power).
I disagree, the whole point of the Tau is that they don't do combat. If they can suddenly purchase high WS suits because of Farsight they lose the main weakness of the codex. You want combat potential? Allies are there for that. If Farsight stops you taking allies, make up for it with your shooting. Access to combat weapons, fair enough, but boosted stats shouldn't come into it.
Also, as I posted initially, I agree that the Dawn Blade should be AP2 if it's getting an AP value.
The other thing to consider here is are the points costs for these guys changing at all? It's all well and good us coming up with rules and ideas left right and centre, but it we don't know what kind of points we're looking at it's all a bit pointless really.
Aun'shi had the power to parry attacks. If he forfeit on of his attacks it will deny an attacking unit 1 attack at minimum of one. Aun'Shi has 4 attacks from what I remembered and to start getting your extra attacks to hit him beyond only having one attack you would need at least 6 attacks. In 3rd I had locked Necrons, Dark Eldar, Marines, etc in close combat this way. Instead of units like daemonettes having 40 attacks on the charge they would have 10. Due to between 4th to now 6th I think it will only happen to those in base contact with him now. This was when pitch in attacks was only one attack and no weapon bonouses If an Achon challenged him he woul have one attack and two attacks on the charge. That is where I get the two attacks from.
Well yes Tau suck in combat. Tzeentch is second in that line up followed not really by guard. I am talking about O'Shova Tau however which in 3rd and 4th fluff they are supposed to be able to fight in melee combat which O'Shova's forces excells in. The ws bonus was from 3rd edition not something I am adding to them. I think O'Shova Tau should reflect the better hand to hand prowless more in stats, by paying more for them. Instread of getting preferred enemy Orcs.
O'Shova stats alone is better than most marines and he can take on marine hq choices no problem and be the victor. Hell I WS 2 isn't really bad unless you're going against 5 or higher. WS 3 makes a differance against that 5 and 6 ws until that 7 comes around the corner. Jumping to I 3 still won't help them, but that extra ws does make a huge differance. For normal Tau I say no, but for O'Shova Tau I think it fits. Bile can do it to Chaos Marines and it was an old rule. I liked it far better that preferred enemy Orcs
Quote from: Chicop76 on January 03, 2013, 09:13:27 PM
Aun'shi had the power to parry attacks. If he forfeit on of his attacks it will deny an attacking unit 1 attack at minimum of one. Aun'Shi has 4 attacks from what I remembered and to start getting your extra attacks to hit him beyond only having one attack you would need at least 6 attacks. In 3rd I had locked Necrons, Dark Eldar, Marines, etc in close combat this way. Instead of units like daemonettes having 40 attacks on the charge they would have 10.
Except that's completely and utterly retarded. You should only be able to parry as many attacks as you sacrifice in total, not per enemy model. I don't care how good you are, if you're facing 10 foes you physically can't parry that much.
Admittedly, I don't know Farsight's fluff, but a Tau model which can beat up Marine commanders "no problem" really doesn't fit with the Tau race.
Yes Bile can boost WS, but that's through genetic manipulation not "because it's Bile". There's a considerable difference there.
The Dawn Blade should simply Deny Armour Saves. No AP involved.
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on January 03, 2013, 10:00:23 PM
The Dawn Blade should simply Deny Armour Saves. No AP involved.
Actually I like that better. I still would like to see armourbane. Bias from me there since he is my favorate character. I think he might be my first one or Aun'Shi. Could had got them together.
Quote from: Warmaster Russ on January 03, 2013, 09:36:34 PM
Quote from: Chicop76 on January 03, 2013, 09:13:27 PM
Aun'shi had the power to parry attacks. If he forfeit on of his attacks it will deny an attacking unit 1 attack at minimum of one. Aun'Shi has 4 attacks from what I remembered and to start getting your extra attacks to hit him beyond only having one attack you would need at least 6 attacks. In 3rd I had locked Necrons, Dark Eldar, Marines, etc in close combat this way. Instead of units like daemonettes having 40 attacks on the charge they would have 10.
Except that's completely and utterly retarded. You should only be able to parry as many attacks as you sacrifice in total, not per enemy model. I don't care how good you are, if you're facing 10 foes you physically can't parry that much.
Admittedly, I don't know Farsight's fluff, but a Tau model which can beat up Marine commanders "no problem" really doesn't fit with the Tau race.
Yes Bile can boost WS, but that's through genetic manipulation not "because it's Bile". There's a considerable difference there.
Maybe that is why Aun'shi was dropped. No one was taking Etherals at all and was only fielding him. The typical though was I enter close combat with Tau and they are done. Once he started his parry attack denial move people went WTF. Than I let them read my book with them saying that is retarded and utter BS. I in the meantime smiled locking that unit in endless combat. I thought it was funny when my whole army is wiped from the board and Aun'Shi is still there blocking attacks like a ninja fool. He was very hard to kill in combat and thanks to re rolling morale it helped the unit stay there. It is not as effective it was than as it is now. Back than if you where in base you get your full attacks and acess to gear while the rest was pitch in attacks with no bonus from gear and it was just 1 attack. Meaning more special weapon attacks would get through.
My problem unless you attached them to broadsides Etherals is the armies target. With 3rd I could deal with a whole army bearing down on that on single unit. Now it is hard to keep him alive with the crazy stuff out there now. Aun'Shi comes back I will field an etheral again.
I see your point with the upgrade issue. The problem is do you write a differant stat line for O'Shova troops rather than the standard. The upgrade option would allow you to have veterans opposing to the green or former Tau that has joined O'Shova ranks. I get the preferred thing which th intent has changed. Instead of being decent in hth with orcs it turned O'Shova shooting crazy against Orcs. Everything is basically twin linked against orcss. If orcs charge that's a twin linked 6s to hit them.
Standard Tau 12 men rapid fire Orcs.
24 shots
12 hit
8 dead Orcs
O'Shova Tau same thing
24 shots
18 hit
12 dead Orcs
That makes Tau more effective against Orcs which O'Shova forces is supposed to be more close quartered than ranged like normal Tau. The rules as they stand reflect we will rape you from range and when you get in combat we will do better than out other Tau brothers. Thanks to Orcs losing that int bonus they strike at the same time as Tau lol. Which means Orcs hit on 3s against Tau's re rollable 4s. Makes a huge differance if they up against str 5 or 4 suits with 2-3 attacks each by the way.
I think the preferred enemy rule is now not what they should have. Although it can be arguged they do fight a lot of Orcs all the time. Still bonus to range shouldn't be there I believe. Like reducing O'Shova bs to 4 should be evident of that.
I'm going to reply to each post in turn. I hope there is a high enough Character count for it....
Quote from: Chicop76 on January 03, 2013, 08:24:50 PM
Spoiler
I would like to see Aun'Shi from the last codex. He would do really well in a challenge especially if his fire warriors are cheering him on. In a chalenge with 12 fire warriors and something like a single archon he would be unkillable. The Archon would only have roughly 2 attacks to hit him and he will have 2 re rolls on his +4 invulnerable. Killing him at range would be the best option which Tau is supposedto excell at. I still have his model which is nicely painted and would like to use him again. At least in fluff tell us what happen to him. I think he should be included back as a character since he was a founding Tau character along with O'Shova and I think Anglar Proc( which whould be cool to have him back too, although I can't remember if he was a white dwarf or codex character)
O'Shova army I would like the 5 point ws and I upgrade back. Too exepnsive on fire warriors, but was very useful on bodyguard and upgraded character suits. I think the upgrade for me at least would be nice to have again or something similar besides having preferred enemy orcs. O'Shova troops are supposedly more close combat orientated. I get the Orc thing, but feel it would be a generalized stat change like the orignial book version was.
The Dawn blade I always felt it should provide somethin like armourbane. His only weapon besides that is a plasma and besides that he lacks anti-vehicle which makes him less appealing.
I think he should go back to having bs 5 since he is still Tau and I doubt his plasma skills have gotten worst. I would like him to be WS 6 though. His fluff I think would support the 6. I think 4 is typically almost average, 5 is like typical sargents, and 6 is your heroes and higher. Without looking 4 is the norm for a tau Shas'O and from the older book they could be 5 on par with O'Shova. I could be wrong since I am not looking at my books at the moment. O'Shova is the exception and I think he should surpass any other Tau's WS which Aun'shi had a 5 I think.
Another thought into O'Shova is that I think his personal body guard at least should have better melee stats. Not ranging into 7 which I thought was silly. His personal guard may or should have access to close combat weapons( not power).
Also ap 1 seems a bit much for the Dawn Blade. I would go with a 2 which seems fair. A one is simply vehicle destruction. Bad enough you have ranged weapons that's ap1 and now a suit commander with the same level or more destructive power than a rail gun.
I think he should have 5 attacks or have the O's lowered to 3. Since FW have toughness 5 suits I think he should be toughness 5. Although he has left the empire and doesn't have acess to the. Ithink t 5, eternal warrior, or a +3 invulnerable would be good options for him to have. One of the 3 would make him more durable and a more capable close combat unit while at the same time not as powerful as an Archon.
Why should he get Hammer of Wraith??? His suit type doesn't provide it and what makes him spcial enough to get it.
The other two characters I wish they do to them what they did to Aun'Shi if you want my opinion about them.
I have written rules for a revamped Aun'shi. As you would like to see it, here they are:
Aun'shi
Aun
Any enemy wounded by the Dawn Blade may not take any armour saves against this weapon. Seems pretty simple and unconfusable.
It DOES get a boost against vehicles in the form of Armourbane. Adding AP1 or 2 makes it even more powerful and would have to raise the cost further.
I still think Aun'shi is a little too powerful when he's not in a challenge. Tau should not be able to reduce a squad of 15 charging Genestealers to 1 attack per model "just because". I get that he's good, especially by Tau standards, but I repeat my earlier point, if there's 15 guys attacking you can not parry them all. Especially when they're faster and better than you are.
Quote from: Warmaster Russ on January 04, 2013, 02:43:53 PM
I still think Aun'shi is a little too powerful when he's not in a challenge. Tau should not be able to reduce a squad of 15 charging Genestealers to 1 attack per model "just because". I get that he's good, especially by Tau standards, but I repeat my earlier point, if there's 15 guys attacking you can not parry them all. Especially when they're faster and better than you are.
I may have poorly worded his ability. Only models in base contact WITH AUN'SHI lose and attack, and they only lose a single attack. I put in "Minimum 1" for any unit which only has a single attack, plus its charge attack.
Does that make you sit more comfortably?
It does, as even if he's surrounded it's only going to affect 6 models at absolute most. Admittedly, that's still a bit much but that's an extreme case so I can live with it, depending on points costs of course, but I'm guessing they'll be discussed once we know what we're actually costing. :P
I guess we could start with current Codex cost, and work from there. I chose to not include Costings at the start so that rules could be discussed without Pts being a limitation. However, if it makes reworking characters easier, then might as well let them be added to the discussion.
Once we have our Codex Characters sorted, perhaps we can then expand into Forge World Characters, and then onto Fan-made creations?
Quote from: Warmaster Russ on January 04, 2013, 04:11:44 PM
It does, as even if he's surrounded it's only going to affect 6 models at absolute most. Admittedly, that's still a bit much but that's an extreme case so I can live with it, depending on points costs of course, but I'm guessing they'll be discussed once we know what we're actually costing. :P
I just wanted to throw out there he really isn't expensive. That is a huge nerf of what he used to could do. Heck I would challenge almost always with Aun'Shi to make sure you can only hit me with usually 1 attack which could be a re rollabe invulnerable save.
Today I will revisit the O'Shova fluff. I read the original and glanced over the current. I say the changes and didn't really readthe old fluff since I knew the older fluff. Although I lost my original Tau book.
Looking over the recent codex the way the weapon is worded. Igores vaves with armour bane is good like that. Givining it ap 2 gives it +1 to the die roll vs vehicles.
Rereading the fluff it is mention that his tau doesn't engage in long range combat and do close quartered combat. Even tough he knows the benefits of ranged combat. Under Orc fighters it is mentioned they train in melee combat. With those two sentences it makes me think these Tau knows kung fu. I would dare say they would probably beat up a normal Tau in a fight.
O'Shova has a Jet Pack and is not a Jump Unit. Jet Packs get bulky, deep strike, and relentless and not the Hammer of Wrath rule. I'm looking at pg 47 main book. I remember they didnkt have it cause I was thinking of running gundrone units that would shoot and assault. Since that unit type does not receive wrath I gave up on that ideal for the time being.
Arent Gun Drone Jump Packers, not Jet Packers?
As per the 6th ed Errata and FAQ, V1.1
Page 32
One of the biggest problems with Tau characters and HQ is with bodyguards or drones in the case of Shadowsun they are no longer IC so cannot Look out sir on 2+. Only being able to LoS on 4+ hurts.
Quote from: Chicop76 on January 05, 2013, 02:24:32 AM
To be honest I would like gun drones have 3 attacks on top of shooting.
I'm going to assume that's a joke.
Quote from: Pottsey on January 06, 2013, 09:34:12 AM
One of the biggest problems with Tau characters and HQ is with bodyguards or drones in the case of Shadowsun they are no longer IC so cannot Look out sir on 2+. Only being able to LoS on 4+ hurts.
That can easily be rectified here. It would make sense after all. :)
Why would drones get 3 attacks? 1 each, 2 on the charge. Thats it and its enough. They are disposable units not CC monsters.
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on January 06, 2013, 07:40:20 PM
Why would drones get 3 attacks? 1 each, 2 on the charge. Thats it and its enough. They are disposable units not CC monsters.
He's refering to Drone shaving HoW, which confers an additional attack @ I10. effectively meaning a 4 Drone unit would get 12 Attacks on the Charge, along with their shooting attacks that would've softened the target.
Quote from: Narric of 4th Sphere on January 06, 2013, 08:55:12 PM
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on January 06, 2013, 07:40:20 PM
Why would drones get 3 attacks? 1 each, 2 on the charge. Thats it and its enough. They are disposable units not CC monsters.
He's refering to Drone shaving HoW, which confers an additional attack @ I10. effectively meaning a 4 Drone unit would get 12 Attacks on the Charge, along with their shooting attacks that would've softened the target.
That would be so awesome. I still like to use my gun drones for deep strike shoot behind tanks and for objective disruption. The shoot and 3 attacks would make them really good fpr what they do.
However, it is unjustified. Gun Drones just don't have the presence or mass to make me think they should have HoW.
However, for that exact same reason, I think they should have Stealth (but not Shrouded), as they're small targets, and could easily hide in cover.
They are not small. They are nowhere near close to small. These things are damn near five feet across at least, and are easily a foot thick. In short, if they are not small enough to constitute a 'swarm' creature, they don't deserve Stealth due to their size.
Quote from: Wargamer on January 06, 2013, 10:36:36 PM
They are not small. They are nowhere near close to small. These things are damn near five feet across at least, and are easily a foot thick. In short, if they are not small enough to constitute a 'swarm' creature, they don't deserve Stealth due to their size.
Thats understandable.
Anyway, enough about Drones, shall we try and return to Tau Characters?
Well, from what I can gather, Farsight should come in at around 210pts, which if memory serves is roughly what he is now anyway. Assuming the Dawn Blade is just ignoring armour saves. If it has an AP then it's probably a little higher.
Shadowsun around 170 before the Shield drones. Not sure how much they cost.
Aun'shi around the 170 ball park.
These are of course preliminary estimates. I'm a little sketchy on the price costs for some of the Tau wargear
Quote from: Narric of 4th Sphere on January 06, 2013, 10:10:37 PM
However, it is unjustified. Gun Drones just don't have the presence or mass to make me think they should have HoW.
However, for that exact same reason, I think they should have Stealth (but not Shrouded), as they're small targets, and could easily hide in cover.
They do with stealth suits. Run a stealth squad behind a tank for + 2 love with drones in tow.
I would agree but Gargoyles are not much bigger and get the benefit. Not to mention 1/2 the cost. Also mass and speed go hand to hand. If a 1 ton object moves at a snails pace not much damage is done there, while an object like a baseball moving at Mach one speed can do massive damage.
If my drone controler upgrade char couldn't be sniped or singled out I would take drones in squads again. I used to do so and ran them with carbines. Sadly Carbines have taking a hit. Although I did assault squads with my Tau and won some fights, thanks to hitting on 4s and that +4 save. However I rather rapid fire and sit in overwatch now.
Thanks to the new edition out flanking kroot is much better now. They are harder to break and they can hit anything that is 30" away from the sides. Which means they threaten 60" or a 5ft section of the table.
With O'Shova the only differance really is the ap of the weapon while it still does the same thing. His cost now is under 200 points. If memory serves me right he is around 170 points.
Aun'Shi if I remember correct is around 110 points. You adding about 50 point more to what both of them normally cost.
Quote from: Chicop76 on January 06, 2013, 11:59:31 PM
I would agree but Gargoyles are not much bigger and get the benefit. Not to mention 1/2 the cost. Also mass and speed go hand to hand. If a 1 ton object moves at a snails pace not much damage is done there, while an object like a baseball moving at Mach one speed can do massive damage.
If my drone controler upgrade char couldn't be sniped or singled out I would take drones in squads again. I used to do so and ran them with carbines. Sadly Carbines have taking a hit. Although I did assault squads with my Tau and won some fights, thanks to hitting on 4s and that +4 save. However I rather rapid fire and sit in overwatch now.
Thanks to the new edition out flanking kroot is much better now. They are harder to break and they can hit anything that is 30" away from the sides. Which means they threaten 60" or a 5ft section of the table.
With O'Shova the only differance really is the ap of the weapon while it still does the same thing. His cost now is under 200 points. If memory serves me right he is around 170 points.
Aun'Shi if I remember correct is around 110 points. You adding about 50 point more to what both of them normally cost.
Gargoyles are living, sentient beings with lots of sharp pointy bits designed to hurl themselves at the enemy after circling them. Gun drones are specifically designed to AVOID combat.
Ok, Farsight I may have been a little hard on, but I don't think I'm out by too much given how Night Vision and Bonding Knives work now and that Farsight's getting Hammer of Wrath and given that he confers Night Vision to his squad (which could be bloody painful) and Bonding Knives to the army. Rallying on LD8 no matter what is a pretty nasty ability. My cost is based on a Shas'O, then charging +5pts for each +1 Initiative, but only 10pts for his rifle. 35pts for the Dawn Blade, 5 for Night Vision, 5 for Hatred, 15 for Blood Brothers, 5 for Hammer of Wrath. Then the Shield generator, target lock and bonding knife at Tau costs = 195 if my maths is right. So ok, I was a little harsh, but not by much I don't think. He should be 205, unless you think any of my costings there are completely unjustified?
Aun'Shi, frankly, adding 50pts is about right here. He was abhorrently broken in his previous incarnation from what you've said, almost as much as Celestine is now. Fearless is no longer a downside and he now gets +1 to Deny the Witch which is not to be underestimated so yeah, I think I'm not far off with Aun'Shi.
Quote from: Warmaster Russ on January 07, 2013, 02:10:10 AM
Quote from: Chicop76 on January 06, 2013, 11:59:31 PM
I would agree but Gargoyles are not much bigger and get the benefit. Not to mention 1/2 the cost. Also mass and speed go hand to hand. If a 1 ton object moves at a snails pace not much damage is done there, while an object like a baseball moving at Mach one speed can do massive damage.
If my drone controler upgrade char couldn't be sniped or singled out I would take drones in squads again. I used to do so and ran them with carbines. Sadly Carbines have taking a hit. Although I did assault squads with my Tau and won some fights, thanks to hitting on 4s and that +4 save. However I rather rapid fire and sit in overwatch now.
Thanks to the new edition out flanking kroot is much better now. They are harder to break and they can hit anything that is 30" away from the sides. Which means they threaten 60" or a 5ft section of the table.
With O'Shova the only differance really is the ap of the weapon while it still does the same thing. His cost now is under 200 points. If memory serves me right he is around 170 points.
Aun'Shi if I remember correct is around 110 points. You adding about 50 point more to what both of them normally cost.
Gargoyles are living, sentient beings with lots of sharp pointy bits designed to hurl themselves at the enemy after circling them. Gun drones are specifically designed to AVOID combat.
Ok, Farsight I may have been a little hard on, but I don't think I'm out by too much given how Night Vision and Bonding Knives work now and that Farsight's getting Hammer of Wrath and given that he confers Night Vision to his squad (which could be bloody painful) and Bonding Knives to the army. Rallying on LD8 no matter what is a pretty nasty ability. My cost is based on a Shas'O, then charging +5pts for each +1 Initiative, but only 10pts for his rifle. 35pts for the Dawn Blade, 5 for Night Vision, 5 for Hatred, 15 for Blood Brothers, 5 for Hammer of Wrath. Then the Shield generator, target lock and bonding knife at Tau costs = 195 if my maths is right. So ok, I was a little harsh, but not by much I don't think. He should be 205, unless you think any of my costings there are completely unjustified?
Aun'Shi, frankly, adding 50pts is about right here. He was abhorrently broken in his previous incarnation from what you've said, almost as much as Celestine is now. Fearless is no longer a downside and he now gets +1 to Deny the Witch which is not to be underestimated so yeah, I think I'm not far off with Aun'Shi.
Hammer is the only thing new really and he still runs between 160-180. However I think maybe having the Dawn blade up to strength six and maybe eternal warrior due to my fan boy ism.
Quote from: Chicop76 on January 07, 2013, 08:14:53 AM
Quote from: Warmaster Russ on January 07, 2013, 02:10:10 AM
Quote from: Chicop76 on January 06, 2013, 11:59:31 PM
I would agree but Gargoyles are not much bigger and get the benefit. Not to mention 1/2 the cost. Also mass and speed go hand to hand. If a 1 ton object moves at a snails pace not much damage is done there, while an object like a baseball moving at Mach one speed can do massive damage.
If my drone controler upgrade char couldn't be sniped or singled out I would take drones in squads again. I used to do so and ran them with carbines. Sadly Carbines have taking a hit. Although I did assault squads with my Tau and won some fights, thanks to hitting on 4s and that +4 save. However I rather rapid fire and sit in overwatch now.
Thanks to the new edition out flanking kroot is much better now. They are harder to break and they can hit anything that is 30" away from the sides. Which means they threaten 60" or a 5ft section of the table.
With O'Shova the only differance really is the ap of the weapon while it still does the same thing. His cost now is under 200 points. If memory serves me right he is around 170 points.
Aun'Shi if I remember correct is around 110 points. You adding about 50 point more to what both of them normally cost.
Gargoyles are living, sentient beings with lots of sharp pointy bits designed to hurl themselves at the enemy after circling them. Gun drones are specifically designed to AVOID combat.
Ok, Farsight I may have been a little hard on, but I don't think I'm out by too much given how Night Vision and Bonding Knives work now and that Farsight's getting Hammer of Wrath and given that he confers Night Vision to his squad (which could be bloody painful) and Bonding Knives to the army. Rallying on LD8 no matter what is a pretty nasty ability. My cost is based on a Shas'O, then charging +5pts for each +1 Initiative, but only 10pts for his rifle. 35pts for the Dawn Blade, 5 for Night Vision, 5 for Hatred, 15 for Blood Brothers, 5 for Hammer of Wrath. Then the Shield generator, target lock and bonding knife at Tau costs = 195 if my maths is right. So ok, I was a little harsh, but not by much I don't think. He should be 205, unless you think any of my costings there are completely unjustified?
Aun'Shi, frankly, adding 50pts is about right here. He was abhorrently broken in his previous incarnation from what you've said, almost as much as Celestine is now. Fearless is no longer a downside and he now gets +1 to Deny the Witch which is not to be underestimated so yeah, I think I'm not far off with Aun'Shi.
Hammer is the only thing new really and he still runs between 160-180. However I think maybe having the Dawn blade up to strength six and maybe eternal warrior due to my fan boy ism.
Then his cost before was wrong. As I said, my math puts him at 195 and that's if he's paying half price for his plasma rifle. Admittedly, unique characters tend to run in a little cheaper, but I think 190 is as low as he should go, that still works out 15pts cheaper than he should be, and he has some nice toys/rules you couldn't get without him. Seems fair enough to me.
S6 and Eternal Warrior? Yeah, like you said, fanboyism. No, definitely not. "And They Shall Know No Special Rules" is not getting applied here.