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Messages - Waaaghpower

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1
Online Roleplaying / Re: Inquisitorial Training School (RP thread)
« on: October 25, 2017, 06:23:59 AM »
Rigg knew that it wouldn't do to completely dominate the conversation all of the time, and so let the others finish their introductions while taking a long draw on his Lho stick before flicking it straight into the trash receptacle from across the room, beaming his most charming smile directly at Ms Robertson, and saying, "Rigg Sesamekesh, pleasure to meet you all. I'm a merchandise man! You want it, I can either get it for you or I know someone who can - Well, at least, that was the case a couple years and, eh," he waved his hand, "A proper arm ago. I think they recruited me for my skills at arm wrestling foremost, but should it come down to it I can handle any financial negotiations we need to."

2
Online Roleplaying / Re: Inquisitorial Training School (RP thread)
« on: October 21, 2017, 06:10:02 AM »
"Secrets? Lies? You all should have just said so!" Rigg beamed, lighting the Lho-stick and taking a brief draw and then blowing out a ring of smoke into the air. "In all seriousness, though, I'll do my best to keep cards on the table, unless we're actually playing at a hand of cards."

3
Online Roleplaying / Re: Inquisitorial Training School (RP thread)
« on: October 19, 2017, 08:12:55 PM »
Rigg's grin widened as he smoothly slid out a Lho stick, then shook his wrist and made the pack disappear back to where it had come from. "Roran, why, how'd you ever acquire a nickname like that? I'd not think call you 'Worse' unless it's your preferred title." He winked, then wheeled back to Titus.

"Aha, no, you mistake my meaning. I was curious if you'd heard what exact mission we're preparing for. Espionage? Action? Derring-do? You two certainly seem like the type for heroics, at least, and I'd be glad to help as your liaison or what-have-you."

Popping the stick into his mouth, he snapped the fingers on his mechanical hand, making a small promethium flame appear. Before lighting, though, he glanced around the room. "Does anyone mind if I smoke?"

4
Online Roleplaying / Re: Inquisitorial Training School (RP thread)
« on: October 18, 2017, 01:53:14 PM »
Rigg was only moments behind Roran, catching the door with his foot as it swung shut, pulling it back open with a movement of his leg and strolling inside, hands in his pockets and a friendly grin plastered on his face. Like Titus, he was clean shaven and wearing his uniform, but his seemed to fit as though it was tailored perfectly to his wiry frame.

Withdrawing his cybernetic right hand from a pocket, he stuck it out towards the closest figure in the room - Titus, as it happened. "Rigg Sesamekesh, pleasure to meet you, what's your name?" he said, glancing over to Roran. "Nice to meet you as well, big guy, what do they call you? Emperor's mercy, between the two of you I feel like I ought to go hit the gym, you're making me feel like I'm starting to lose muscle tone." He waved his cybernetic arm, emphasizing that it was a joke. "Anyone know what we're here for?"

Flicking out his biological right hand, a pack of Lho sticks seemed to appear as though from air, though it had probably been tucked up his sleeve. Opening the lid and sliding out one so it could be easily grabbed, he offered, "Care for a smoke?"


If Rigg was aware that he'd just asked four questions in the space of ten seconds, he showed no sign of it, still grinning broadly at both of his new friends.

5
Official Announcements / Re: 2S Improvement Survey
« on: October 09, 2017, 04:54:20 PM »
I don't actually care for the mobile site, because it drops two very useful features: The main page doesn't list the black/grey/white icons that let you know if there's a new post, and it doesn't have the subheader showing the most recently active thread. Rather than being able to tell what's up at a glance, I have to check each subforum individually... Or set my phone to load the desktop view.

6
So we have a Slum-born Inquisitor hopeful, Judge Dread, and Marvel's Loki?
No, no, Loki is a charming scumbag, and also isn't totally worthless in a fight. I'm mostly a nice guy!

7
(My character ended up a little min-maxed. That wasn't exactly my intent when I started out, but I DID want to nearly bottom out my Sanity and Willpower, so... Sort of worked out.)

Name: Rigg Sesamekesh
Age/Gender: 36, Male
Background: Born into a family of midling merchants, Rigg demonstrated himself to be the golden child almost, developing a silver tongue almost in unison with learning to speak. Quick with a joke and quicker with a smile, he charmed his way through childhood and, once old enough to start handling business on his own, charmed his way into a not-so modest fortune.
With things coming this easily, though, he developed a taste for risk-taking alongside his perfectly legitimate business enterprises. Sweet-talking his way into higher and higher risk gambling which continued to pay off, right up until they discovered that he'd been cheating. He managed to tearfully beg things away from having his head cut off, but wasn't so lucky to keep one of his hands or any of his winnings.
Of course, that didn't teach him to stop cheating, it just taught him to find a good cybernetics supplier and get better at cheating. (While justifying it that, of course, everyone he was taking money from was some form of criminal or another.)
A coward and pushover in real combat, Rigg will gladly take risks and show off outside of it. His looks and words can carry him through most social situations, a fact he happily takes advantage of, making friends as easily as a fish swims in water. He could sell green to an Ork and mutation to a heretic, but prefers his business associates to be more human and faithful... So long as they've money.

StrengthCo-ordinationIntelligenceEnduranceSanityWillpowerCharisma
68742310

Specialisations:
  • Sleight of Hand (For card tricks, palming and lifting items, pickpocketing,
     etc)
  • Silver-Tongued (Charming/Negotiating)
  • Cybernetic Arm - Designed with less emphasis on strength or durability and more placed on fine motor control. (Additionally, there is a small hidden compartment, in which he keeps a folded pocket knife and any valuable papers or documents that he can cram in.

8
Sure, what the hey, I'll join in. Why not, amirite?

9
General 40k and Expansions / Re: Fall of Konor - Who's in?
« on: August 03, 2017, 07:41:57 PM »
My LGS is playing through. I won a victory for the Imperials last Tuesday, and next week I'm playing a massive 3,000 point game next week to finish off the last of the stragglers trying to stay they executions on Konor.

Playing mostly Marines/Sisters, since I want the Imperials to win. I'm fine with Grimdark, but I don't want the setting to be too excessively bleak - Since GW would have to pull some kind of writing asspull in order to explain why the entire universe doesn't just fall apart if the Imperium loses, and that'd annoy me to no end.

10
This is... Not gonna go well for the Guard player, unless they can tank it out and hold objectives. I predict tha only one Knight will die - Barely - On the bottom of turn 2 or top of 3. Without knowing mission type I can't predict a victor.

11
In response to all the people worried about Da Jump...
You can stop worrying. It's not NEARLY as broken against all armies as it seems, you just have to be prepared for it. 8th edition isn't about Hordes and Auras, it's about Hordes, Auras, and Screening.

If your army list lacks a couple screening units, you're going to be in a tight spot, but if you throw in a couple MSU that can deploy out and prevent deep strikers of all flavors from hitting your vulnerable, tender bits, you'll be a lot better off. A 9" Radius is pretty big, and a horde of Ork Boyz is also pretty big.

However, I've discovered new cheese you can do with two Weirdboys and Orks, if you're playing against Tau or Sisters of Battle or Guard - Basically any army that's T3.

'Eadbanger.

I've killed a fully-healed, 2++ protected Autarch in one shot, as well as a Celestine, because 'Eadbanger is really broken as long as you can get it into the right position against a T3 army. I'm sure this will be less effective as time goes on, but for now, opponents seem to be leaving their characters semi-vulnerable in the back if those characters are tanky, because they assume that any Deep Striker will be too large to fit or won't be able to cause enough damage to kill them. Weirdboys are just a single model that can squeeze in tiny gaps, though, and as long as you've got a Command Point lying around their power has about a 75% chance of instapopping any T3 character. (If your opponent lacks a tanky T3 character, just take Warpath instead.)


As for killing fliers, that one is easy: Stormboyz. Just assault the flier and rip it to pieces. The only fliers that are T8+ are Forge World (At least that I've found,) and none that I've seen have better than a 3+ save. Fifteen charging Stormboys will put 6 wounds on a flier with a 3+ save, 8 wounds on a 4+ save, and 9 wounds on a 5+ save. 

Or just ignore them? Also a possibility, depending on the volume of them and the mission type.


If you don't mind a bit of Cheese, (Or a lot of cheese, actually,) Zhardsnark Da Rippa, from the Forgeworld Index, is much better than an equivalent (*On a Bike, with a Power Klaw and Attack Squig) Ork Warboss for about ten points. In fact, given completely average dice, he can solo two Warbosses.
Math:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)


Basically, Zhardsnark is absolutely worth the ten extra points, as he's universally better in all contexts with zero downsides unless you plan on running another named Ork character and want their clan benefits.

12
Yeah... Saw that coming. I've used the exact same tactic a couple times, and it absolutely demolishes tightly-packed deployments. Looks like 8th is all gonna be about buff bubbles and area denial.

Fun to read, though!

13
Based off of the half-dozen or so games I've played in 8th so far...

This ain't gonna go so well for the Space Marines. Unless I'm way off the mark here, that's simply not enough firepower to deal with that volume of Boyz. Gravcannons aren't suited to kill Tanks anymore with S5, and lack volume of fire to kill Ork Boyz...
I dunno. Maybe if he has a really good first turn and you manage to whiff Da Jump or your post-jump Charge...


I guess I'll just wait and see. But my teef are on the Orks.

14
So, I'm going to start by acknowledging that, while I'm generally not a fan of 8th edition in a whole bunch of ways, some of that is just personal taste. I was a big fan of the way that 7th edition worked, and losing a lot of elements that were problematic but fun (Like blast templates) seems like a big step in the wrong direction to me.
For many players, those kinds of changes aren't going to be a problem, though. That's just me, not being catered to, because GW has decided that their target audience is elsewhere. I can't really fault them for that, even if it's personally frustrating.

Anyways...


As of yesterday, I got my hands on the Forge World indexes, and they're an absolute... Well, I would like to use a lot of creative vulgarity to describe how bad they are, but it'd all a bunch of squiggles, asterisks, and ampersands. It's bad. It's REALLY bad. Broken rules, bad typos, unplayable models, special rules that have no function, huge imbalance between itself and the GW books, missing wargear choices. On top of this, there are units missing - Mega dreads come to mind, but there are several others. The book reads like a first draft. The Imperial Armor: Astartes book is the only one I got for myself, but I've seen friends' copies of the other three, and they're all just as bad.
(As an aside, the books also feel cheap - The cover art is recycled and uses white Arial text for its title, and unlike the GW indexes, they couldn't even spring for a splash page or a page of flavor text here or there to break up the endless pages of rules - The Astartes book is half the length of any of the GW indexes, too, so it's not like they were just out of room.)

There are some broken GW rules as well, though nothing so egregious as this. Still, I'm going to mention them here - Missing wargear options, weird imbalances in point cost for some things, various nerfs and buffs that seem unfair in various directions, and lots of various army comp choices and tactical options that are missing. (Oh, and as a minor point, the Chaos Vindicator is identical in stats to a regular Vindicator, but has a Power Level of 11 instead of 8. For some reason.)


And whenever I bring this up to apologists, the response I almost invariably get is that "They'll fix it later", either in an FAQ, or in a Chapter Approved, or when Codices come out, or when they do an update. And I'm getting *sick* of hearing that.

Games Workshop is asking money for their products right now, which means that they think that their products are in a state that is worthy of being sold. I understand that they cannot possibly do the amount of playtesting necessary to perfectly balance a game of this scale on their own, which is why I'm not upset about certain questionable balance decisions, but that's no excuse for some of the simply obvious mistakes that have been made in many, many cases. I, a random customer with no background in game design, should not be able to look at a book and see obvious, major imbalances in the effectiveness of some units (Cough*Acts of Faith*Cough). I should especially not be able to look at a rule and immediately see that it doesn't function when there are at least theoretically supposed to be teams of people who are paid to do this for a living. (I can't say for sure, though, because FW stopped accrediting writers.)

Not to mention that GW's fixes of late haven't... really... Been very good. Every broken thing about 7th edition hasn't been rebalanced, it's had a baseball bat taken to its kneecaps so that it'll never walk again. It gives the sense that GW is less concerned with balance and more concerned with showing off that they are trying to fix things. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe they'll stop doing this, but right now I'm under the impression that when it comes time to Start Fixing Things, they'll give a nominal effort to correcting all of the literally broken rules, then take anything that was still overpowered and triple its point cost so that it'll never see the light of a competitive game again.


Games Workshop should fix their products *before* shipping out print copies of books, not after, and I'm honestly surprised that this seems like a radical opinion to some people.

15
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I've not had anything that I've ever fielded rendered unusable by a rule change since third edition.  The change from second to third edition was so significant that it was bound to invalidate some options, but otherwise I've fielded more or less the same units with the same weapons since third edition.  I don't optimise my wargear/units for particular editions, I pretty much use them as is.  If that means some weapons are less effective from one edition to the next, that's just the way it is.  This is why I prefer all round lists which are not excessively tailored or optimised.
I don't optimize my armies for maximum competitive power either, but I do generally like to have my units optimized, or at least not intentionally crap, since I hate feeling like I'm intentionally wasting points. For example, with the new Inquisitorial Acolytes, I will not be using any of them with Laspistols. Bolt Pistols are the same cost, and unambiguously better for zero downside. Also, I haven't been playing since 3rd, I've been playing since 5th, and I tend to get new models and units regularly - I played only Orks in 5th, added Space Wolves, then Space Marines, then Inquisition, then Sisters of Battle in 6th, then added Grey Knights, Deathwatch, and a few other minor bits here and there in 7th. (Assassins, Astra Telepathica, etc.) I built those with whatever seemed coolest at the time.

However, most of my invalidated units are simply combinations that I think were cool: I took an Inquisitor with two Daemonblades, because the idea of him carrying around the souls of Daemons in order to achieve the maximum human potential of power is really cool to me. On the board, it was a crapshoot - Sometimes incredibly powerful, sometimes worthless - But it was always fun to play.
All of my models that I built to have WYSIWYG with relics (Most pertinently, my Wolf Lord who I gave a bonesword, so that he could really weild the Krakenbone Sword, and my Librarian who I gave a Thunder Hammer from the Iron Hands upgrade pack so that he could have the Mindforge Stage), are not really useable. My Wolf Lord can, I guess, have a Relic Blade? But that Librarian can't be a Librarian anymore. My Cataphractii Captain with a Storm Shield is bust. Sororitas Command Squads don't exist anymore, Psycollum doesn't exist anymore, and Condemner Boltguns barely do anything anymore, so I have nothing to do with the five Condemner Boltguns that I have five Sisters all armed with. Most of my Deathwatch are bust (Though incidentally, they randomly and suddenly allow Deathwatch Veterans to take Bolt Pistols, which they don't have parts for and require kitbashing because that didn't exist in 7th).

Usually, my list building involved a sort of reverse optimization: I would pick a list or army style that I want to try, then retroactively figure out how to make that list good. I've played melee-centric Adepta Sororitas, Space Marine Parking Lots, pure Inquisition, pretty much anything I could think of that sounded fun. Sometimes that would lead me to stumble upon something genuinely OP, but OP lists are incredibly boring to play, so those lists usually get shelved after a single use.


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GW has always taken this approach with their rules, as you alluded to above.  The only difference this time is that any changes will probably be made more quickly.  If there are combinations that you are convinced that they may change, hold off constructing the models until there has been a review.  I doubt that you would have to wait that long.
My Inquisition models were legal since the beginning of 6th edition. Are you saying that I should have held off for that long? Sometimes those changes can be predicted (For example, it's not too surprising that they changed Deathwatch a few months after the codex came out,) but other ones are a complete, unfair crapshoot. (How in the heck am I supposed to predict that an entire unit is going to be axed from the SoB codex?)

Also: I shouldn't have to wait six months or a year to find out if GW is going to pull out the rug on me before I start building my kits.  If they can't decide what they want to allow before they release it, they shouldn't punish players for that.

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Randomisation is tedious, I agree and I also prefer heterogeneity to homogeneity, however, I would have to be persuaded that this edition involved too much homogenisation.  This is not to say that I think that eighth is somehow a silver bullet to all the problems with GW's rules.  I do not believe this for one minute, but I do think that, in a number of respects, it is a step in the right direction.
I don't have exact data on it, but I think that a lot of weapon profiles across armies definitely are a lot similar. If you look for the number of weapons that used to have different rules, and are now S8 AP-4 Bonus Damage at Half Range, or S9 AP-3 D6 damage, I think you'll find that a lot more weapons have a lot in common. Also, the loss of AP5 and AP6 equivalents means that most anti-infantry weapons are a lot more similar in effect, as is the fact that all weapons are useable on all things - Since S3 can now hurt tanks just as well as S4, instead of S3 being useless against tanks, but S4 being sometimes capable of glancing tanks from the rear.

Why should I take a Vindicator over a Predator now? Or visa versa? You get +1 Strength and D3/D6 shots instead of 4. They do the same battlefield role. What's to get excited about? A slightly different type of rolling that does the same thing? I may as well just go with whichever gives the slightly better cost/damage ratio and call it good.

Combi-Weapons are just regular Special Weapons plus Bolter Shots. Flamers fill almost the exact same niche as Storm Bolters, getting almost the same number of average hits and doing the same damage since it no longer ignores cover. Plasma Cannons actually do the same amount of average damage as Plasma Guns when within 12", since D3 shots means 2 shots and that's what you get from a Rapid Fire weapon anyways. The Command Land Raider now just gives the same benefits as a Space Marine Captain.
Captains give re-rolls on 1s to hit. Chaplains give re-rolls on hits in Close Combat.
A regular Captain is as accurate as Cypher now, because 2+ with Rerolls on 1s can't get any better than it is. 
Ork Deep Strike is equally as accurate as Space Marine Deep Strike and Eldar Deep Strike.
Chapter Tactics and Marks of Chaos have been axed. (And no, 'Just wait for codices' is not a good counter-argument. There's no reason why they couldn't have included them in half a page in their respective books, and having to wait months or more to get content back to the point it was pre-update is crappy.) A unit of Chaos Space Marines now plays identically to a unit of Space Marines in almost all circumstances.

Acts of Faith give the same buffs to every unit, and one of those buffs - Recovering wounds - Is actually the same as an ability provided by other units. (Actually, Hospitallers are just less versatile versions of Imagifiers, since they do the same thing as an act of faith: On a 4+, recover wounds for a nearby unit.)

Also, this is a minor point, but Ministorum Priests only give one buff, and it's only useful to a tiny number of units that could potentially take it, and Astra Telepathica really only help IG.

I could keep going, too. For a really, really long time. But I think this helps make the point.

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The comments pertaining to overpowered combinations are issues that I find unpersuasive.  Having played Rogue Trader and second edition, most of the balance issues since then have been far less serious.  There are likely to be balance issues, but this has been true for all editions.  I think that it's far too early to complain about balance in eighth when there's so little data to analyse at this juncture.
I don't mind imbalance, but I do mind imbalance in this particular context: If the whole point of 8th edition was to flatten out the balance, and that's why they had to sacrifice the unique abilities, weapons, and rules that all the different armies and units have, that's fine. But when they remove all of those things, and the game is still increadibly breakable at a glance, that's a major problem. (And from all of the data I have: The deployment rules are crap, and first turn leads to an almost guaranteed win. I've played four games, and this has been true from all four games, plus all of the games I've heard about from other players, with one exception: A killpoints game between pure Imperial Knights and Orks, in which first turn did not matter.) This will require more time to confirm for certain, but it seems pretty clear already that the rules for deployment and first turn are incredibly imbalanced and unfair.

It feels like, instead of trying to balance the game, they just tried to remove all of the things people were complaining about instead, without realizing that their new fixes caused new breaks.


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I get the impression that you play a lot on a highly competitive tournament scene.  That has never been my cup of tea.  I'm a casual player.  I suspect that this is the main reason why we have a number of divergent views, although we do agree on some points.
Not really. I play with one CSM friend at his house, and then a group of friends at an LGS, and another group of friends on different days at the same LGS. If I were a WAAC player, I'd be happy about how cheesy the new edition appears to be: More tournaments for me to break, after all!
I'm disappointed because I like playing with all my different toys. I like putting down my big models and smashing them together while making dinosaur noises. (Proverbially*.) It's a game, I enjoy playing with it, and by stripping out a ton of options and ways to play (While ironically adding two game modes that are unplayable if you want a remotely fair game,) GW has removed many of my favorite things.

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