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Second Sphere Codex: Adeptus Astartes

Started by Narric, February 22, 2013, 03:20:41 PM

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Narric

I had a thought the other day, about the old Chapter Triats I heard about when Codex: SMurfs came out, and only know have I got thinking. How easy would it be, to make a single Codex, that could be used to represent all Space Marine Chapters (With the exception of Grey Knights).

My first thoughts for this was to make standardised units, each with certain options that tool them to become a space unit. For example, A Blood Angels specific upgrade that turns Vanguard Veterans, into Sanguinary Guard, or a Black Templar Upgrade that turns Sternguard into Sword Brethran.

Unfortunately, I only have Codex: Black Templars at my disposal.

Obviously, this needs a lot of opinions, to one, play well, two be fun to play against, and three, not be OP/OTT

As the Codexi are going towards Armoury lists for wargear again, maybe this is the right time to make such a Codex work.

Wargamer

Funny, Rainman / Sotek / whatever he's going by now :P have been chatting about house ruled Chapters lately, especially those who wander away from the norms somewhat.

I've got all the codices knocking about save for the current Dark Angels one (because Mkoll has borrowed it) so I'm certain I could come up with some handy elements.

An interesting point here is that the old "We Stand Alone" penalty might actually be a penalty in sixth. I sometimes think reading half the comments people make about army lists that people physically cannot make an army using only one Codex anymore.
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Osiris

Will this Codex plan ultimately be a part of the proposed 2S Chapter (IIRC) it was proposed, a bunch of people hopped on it and the goal was to get some minis painted/army ready, with the 2S colour scheme? I cannot remember what that scheme was though.

Or is this a different idea?

Either way, it seems like itll turn into someone decent.
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Narric

Osiris, I think you're referring to the old "Rosen Knights" Forum Chapter we tried to do in the days of Tau Online. I unfortunately don't remember who the project lead was for that, and my own part to it has long since left my hands via eBay.

This is a different idea, as I personally want it to be a Codex/Fandex that can field every flavour of Space Marine force, from a single Word Doc/PDF doc/Booklet.

We could branch into a Codex Specific Chapter, to act the Poster boys for it, such as Ultramarines are for Vanilla. But I'd say that should be further down the line, when we have some concrete brainstorming and Playtesting started/done. Hope it still interests you.

Wargamer, as I said, we need all the imput we can get. I'm at a disadvantage right now, with only having Codex: BT for reference

Osiris

this does interest me as the current codices are rather restricted.
Dark Angels with their Deathwing and Raven Wing is being used as the example.

You could, just my opinion mind you, if its a fandex, call it one of the lost chapters? just a thought. or give it its own fluff, like it was the first chapter made by the Emperor but was fractured due to the power grabbing between the Primarchs, or because the Emperor made the Primarchs. just a thought/opinion.

i think my fluff idea may be a tad different than what you are proposing as i say lump most of it together, and also remove/rename certain units because it would have been different at the time of its inception. E.g - Sanguinary Guards would be called, for lack of a better idea, the Palace guard. something along those lines. but as i type this, my mind is spinning off in 10 different directions.

ah, yes, Rosen Knights. it was interesting to watch it develop.

i have the vanilla codex/ba codex/bt/ but i also have the Angels of Death Codex...yeah, when BA and DA shared a codex. Awesomesauce.
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Waaaghpower

This would be really useful. It's like...
Okay, we've got a bunch of nearly identical armies with almost the same models and almost the same rules. Let's release a bunch of different books!
If they did that with Daemons, everyone would be pissed. So why do they get away with it for Marines?
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Wargamer

#6
Okay, here are a few opening concepts for the Codex "traits". These are not necessarily equally balanced on a "one positive for one negative" style, but the intent is to give a wide range of options. In particular, I want to make sure the negative traits are negative, not "I'm never going to use unit x anyway so I'll not allow them in my army" style negatives.

Positive Traits:

Company Specialists: Any Tactical Squad in your army may be upgraded to Company Specialists at +3pts per model, giving all Space Marines (including the sergeant / veteran sergeant) one of the following special rules: counter attack, furious charge, tank hunters.

Company Veterans: Any Space Marine (not including the sergeant / veteran sergeant) may be upgraded to a veteran space marine at +5pts. This gives him +1 Attack and access to the veteran armoury. A unit that chooses this upgrade are considered to be a Company Veteran Squad.
You may choose to count Company Veterans as Elites or Troops. If taken as Troops, you must choose a negative trait. If taken as Elites, no negative traits apply.

Crux Terminatus: For every Captain or Chapter Master in your army with Terminator Armour, one unit of Terminators counts as Scoring.

Legionary: The Chapter emulates the Legions of old, making use of larger than normal squads. The maximum unit size of Legionary Tactical, Legionary Assault and Legionary Devastator squads is increased to 20. If the unit contains twenty models, they may double up on all weapon upgrade options (eg: a devastator squad of twenty models may have eight heavy weapons). Legionary squads may not make use of Combat Squads unless the unit contains twenty models, in which case they split into two ten man squads.

Master and Pupil: Chapters with this trait may not take Scouts. Instead, any Tactical or Devastator squad may include up to five Neophytes at +10pts per model. A Neophyte uses the Scout profile and equipment, but does not gain the Infiltrate, Scouts or Move Through Cover special rules. Neophytes may replace their bolters with shotguns or close combat weapons at no cost, but cannot take any other options from the Scouts entry, nor can they take equipment from their parent squad entry. The number of Neophytes in a unit may not exceed the number of Space Marines (including the sergeant and/or veteran sergeant) in the unit, and the unit may not exceed its normal squad size. If a unit with Neophytes makes use of combat squads, they must be split between the two units as evenly as possible.

Negative Traits:

Abhor the Witch: The army may not include any Psykers, nor may any allied detachment include any Psykers.

Honour your Colours: No units in the army may make use of the Infiltrate, Deep Strike or Outflanking special rules. Units that must arrive via these means cannot be included in your army.

Newfounded: The army may not include any Venerable Dreadnoughts, Terminator Assault Squads, Sternguard or Vanguard Veterans. You may only include one Terminator Squad per Captain in terminator armour included in your army.

Trust in Flesh: You may not include any Land Raiders in your army. You may only include one Rhino variant (ie: Razorback, Predator, Whirlwind, Vindicator) per Techmarine or Master of the Forge in your army. All Rhinos, Razorbacks and Drop Pods are Fast Attack choices.

Unremarkable: The army may not include any Special Characters, nor may any allied detachment include any special characters.

We Stand Alone: The army treats all allies as "Come the Apocalypse".
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The Man They Call Jayne

Legionary on Devestators seems a little too powerful. I know it will cost a fair sum, but you will be able to combat squad into 6 fully functional devestator squads. That is an obscene amount of firepower. On the others its fine, but it just seems a bit too much there. I wouldnt want to face 6 Devestator squads no matter what they were armed with. Especially if they are using Space Wolves that can split their fire.

And what is "Come the Apocalypse"? From the context I am assuming it is like Desperate Allies?

The rest seems pretty cool. I do like the Neophyte one in particular. I always liked that aspect of the Templars.
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Cammerz

Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on February 23, 2013, 06:19:12 PM

And what is "Come the Apocalypse"? From the context I am assuming it is like Desperate Allies?


"Come the Apocalypse" is the most extreme option on the allies matrix, it means they cannot allie, ever. Tyranids have it for everything, then things like Grey Knights with Chaos Daemons, if an army has that rule then it can never ally with anything, simple as that (except in Apocalypse games of course, but they just don't care).

The Man They Call Jayne

Huh, I wonder how I never saw that one. My bad.
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Narric

I like those Traits Wargamer. However, the Positive traits seems to stand on both army wide, and Squad specific upgrades.

Also, how would "Company Veterans" work alongsde "Newfounded?" Surely you would not be able to take veteran squad of any kind. Or is that intended?

Would the Crux Terminatus be an upgrade to a Captain/Commander/Chapter Master?

"Trust in the Flesh" seems a bit too restrictive. Very much like Farsights' "Breakwaway Faction" Special Rule. I can understand a limit on Land Raiders, but why also Rhino-chassis'd tanks?

"Unremarkable" wouldn't really affect me, as I often try to avoid relying on SCs. I'd reckon this should be implemented as a special rule for a Chapter Master, as in my mind, there shouldn't be two CMs rolling around together, unless a conflict has truly reached a critical level, aka Apocalypse.

Could you explain the idea behind "Honour your Colours?"

The Man They Call Jayne

Oh, would the cost of Company Specialists be doubled for a unit using Legionary? Or increased in some way if not doubled? Something like:

"If an army takes the Legionary trait and gives a unit the Company Specialist trait, pay 30 points + 3 points per man over the original 10. "

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Lord Sotek

#12
Quote from: Narric on February 23, 2013, 07:06:57 PM
"Trust in the Flesh" seems a bit too restrictive. Very much like Farsights' "Breakwaway Faction" Special Rule. I can understand a limit on Land Raiders, but why also Rhino-chassis'd tanks?
Rhinos don't precisely grow on trees, and their variants often require specialized knowledge, components, and retooling a Chapter may simply not have access to. A Chapter might be on poor terms with the manufacturing base for such vehicles, they might have a doctrinal emphasis that eschews armor support in favor of emphasizing Marines, or they might have a prediliction for fighting in environments that render such vehicles of limited use, like naval engagements, cramped cities, or jungle terrain.

It is a pretty steep drawback, but drawbacks are supposed to be drawbacks, and the 6th edition meta de-emphasizes transports anyways.

QuoteWould the Crux Terminatus be an upgrade to a Captain/Commander/Chapter Master?
Between the RAW and my knowledge of Wargamer, it seems to be that you simply select Crux Terminatus as a chapter trait, and then if you do any Commander/Chapter Master you've given Terminator armor automatically gets the bonus.

Quote"Unremarkable" wouldn't really affect me, as I often try to avoid relying on SCs.
Which is preciesly why this is an awesome Trait, and one of my favorites. It only really penalizes you heavily if you're the sort of player who relies on gimmicky Special Character combos, whereas if you're a fluffy player who eschews SC, it's almost a freebie. Wargamer and I believe firmly in writing rules that reward players who favor originality and fluffiness in army lists but hate seeing themselves gimped because of it.


QuoteAlso, how would "Company Veterans" work alongsde "Newfounded?" Surely you would not be able to take veteran squad of any kind. Or is that intended?
'Newfounded' restricts stuff like Sternguard, Vanguard, and Terminators because these three are all units built around their utilization of extremely sophisticated and difficult to produce or finite-quantity items. Older chapters will have been founded back in the days when stuff like Terminator Armor, mass quantities of Specialist Ammo, and the Relic Blades and whatnot Vanguard squads use were more commonplace, and have continued to be supplied in them by their manufacturers. However, the manufacturing capaibility for all of these things is known to have decreased over time, to the point where most new chapters barely get any suits of Terminator armor, and those they do are nigh-irreplaceable.

The two Traits work alongside each other just fine. A Newfounded chapter can still have extensive battlefield record that's produced a cadre of seriously badass veteran marines with loads of combat experience (Company Veterans). Those badass marines just aren't going to have as many fancy relic-tech toys to play with as an older and better-equipped chapter would, hence the restrictions Newfounded places on 'ultra rare/elite wargear' units.


QuoteCould you explain the idea behind "Honour your Colours?"

Guardsmen paint their armor in camouflage colors. Why? because they don't want the enemy to see them until it's already too late.

Space marines, however, are shock and awe troopers with immense esprit de corps and a knightly pride in their heraldry, which usually consists of bold and prominent colors. Almost all space marine wears such colors instead of camoflauge. Why? Because they want the enemy to see them and know it's already too late.

There are exceptions to this, like the Raptors or the Raven Guard, who do emphasize stealth and concealment. However, there are also exceptions in the other direction; chapters whose rigid sense of honor and immense martial pride dictates that to hide your colors in any respect is cowardice, not to mention immense disrespect to the emblems and heraldry of your proud Chapter. To such marines, any use of stealth, camouflage, or overt subterfuge would thus be unconscionably honorless and underhanded, actions utterly unbefitting and beneath warriors on a level such as Astartes.




Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on February 23, 2013, 07:18:37 PM
Oh, would the cost of Company Specialists be doubled for a unit using Legionary? Or increased in some way if not doubled?

I personally would imagine that you wouldn't be able to pick Legionary with many other positive traits, if you were allowed to take multiples at all. It also strikes me that it could well be suited towards being mandatorily paired with one of the harsher traits, like We Stand Alone; after all, Legionnary represents chapters that are significantly overstrength, which is a massive breach of the Codex Astartes that can invite a lot of alienation even if it doesn't result in outright punishment. Just look at the Badab War.

Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on February 23, 2013, 06:19:12 PM
Legionary on Devestators seems a little too powerful. I know it will cost a fair sum, but you will be able to combat squad into 6 fully functional devestator squads. That is an obscene amount of firepower. On the others its fine, but it just seems a bit too much there. I wouldnt want to face 6 Devestator squads no matter what they were armed with. Especially if they are using Space Wolves that can split their fire.

Look closely at the text, if you take Legionary you can't Combat Squad unless you have a full 20 models, and if you do your Combat Squads have to be 10 marines each.
As to Legionary Space Wolves? Knowing Wargamer, this list is of traits very distinctly intended ONLY for use with Codex: Space Marines (Or a 2s version thereof) and the units from it, in order to represent original player-made chapters or GW chapters that have no custom rules of their own.

So You could take a list of Space Marines with Space Wolf allies, but if you took Legionary, you'd only be able to apply it to Devastator Squads, not any Long Fangs.
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The Man They Call Jayne

If you have 20 Devestators in a sigle squad, making 1 HS choice, you can have 8 heavy weapons, and can then split into 2 10 man squads with 4 heavy weapons in each. You then have essentially 2 HS units for a single slot. Or 6 for 3 if you just used them. On Tactical Marines, or Assault marines, that isn't so bad. But with Devestators you could build a list around 3 20 man squads, arm them with Missile Lauchers and just devestate anything you touch.
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Wargamer

To clarify some of my thinking...

Company Specialists is now "+3pts per model". This means a 20 man unit (via Legionary) pays 60pts. Note that if you pair this with Master and Pupil, the Company Specialist bonuses apply only to the non-Neophyte models, but Neophytes still have to pay for the Specialist upgrade (no being sneaky and taking 10 Neophytes as meatshields for your two Tank-hunting meltaguns!).

On that note, Black Templars could be created in this Codex via taking Legionary + Master & Pupil, allowing you to have your "Crusader Squads". This might be worth combining with a Trait that lets you swap bolters for close combat weapons.

As for the others... remember that this is intended as a "Codex Astartes", but frankly there's no way we can cover Space Wolves in this. They're just too different from the norm to be done justice in a one-size-fits-all project like this in my opinion. As such, all my suggestions are done assuming we seek to encapsulate Codex: Space Marines, Black Templars, Blood Angels and Dark Angels into a single Codex.

On the subject of balancing them, I think some kind of point buy is the way forward. That way, we can produce a list of Buffs / DeBuffs and say "This is worth +1 Doctrine Point. This should be a -2 Doctrine Point ability, etc." and so on. We then have a rule that a Chapter must have a net total of 0 "Doctrine Points" left over.  You can have a negative total if you really want to, there's just no benefits to doing so.

I'm rambling a bit here, so let me go through item by item:

QuoteLegionary on Devestators seems a little too powerful. I know it will cost a fair sum, but you will be able to combat squad into 6 fully functional devestator squads. That is an obscene amount of firepower. On the others its fine, but it just seems a bit too much there. I wouldnt want to face 6 Devestator squads no matter what they were armed with. Especially if they are using Space Wolves that can split their fire.
I do not intend for Split Fire to be an option. If it is, it will have to be costed / balanced accordingly.
Remember that if you do take 60 Devastators, not only are you going to be placing additional penalties on your army's organisation, but you're spending 900pts on them before purchasing any weapons or upgrades. That's a pretty hefty price tag.

QuoteAnd what is "Come the Apocalypse"? From the context I am assuming it is like Desperate Allies?
"Come the Apocalypse" means you cannot ally outside of an Apocalypse game, as others have said.

QuoteThe rest seems pretty cool. I do like the Neophyte one in particular. I always liked that aspect of the Templars.
My intent was that Black Templar Crusader Squads are represented by combining Legionary with Master & Pupil. M&P on its own is more for my own Chapter. :P

Quote from: Narric on February 23, 2013, 07:06:57 PM
I like those Traits Wargamer. However, the Positive traits seems to stand on both army wide, and Squad specific upgrades.
The Traits, both positive and negative, are army wide... it's just that they sometimes only really apply to a specific unit.

QuoteAlso, how would "Company Veterans" work alongsde "Newfounded?" Surely you would not be able to take veteran squad of any kind. Or is that intended?
You can indeed take both Company Veterans and Newfounded; this is most definitely intentional!

QuoteWould the Crux Terminatus be an upgrade to a Captain/Commander/Chapter Master?
No. It is an army-wide upgrade; you buy it once, and it applies to all HQs that meet the criteria.

Quote"Trust in the Flesh" seems a bit too restrictive. Very much like Farsights' "Breakwaway Faction" Special Rule. I can understand a limit on Land Raiders, but why also Rhino-chassis'd tanks?
The intent is to seriously cripple any attempts to field armour. The extreme restrictions ensure you cannot simply make up for your lack of Land Raiders by bringing a Vindicator and half a dozen assault cannon razorbacks. Remember, penalties are meant to penalise!

Quote"Unremarkable" wouldn't really affect me, as I often try to avoid relying on SCs. I'd reckon this should be implemented as a special rule for a Chapter Master, as in my mind, there shouldn't be two CMs rolling around together, unless a conflict has truly reached a critical level, aka Apocalypse.
This is a good point. Remember though that this special rule is a blanket ban on all characters; not only do you lose out on Calgar, Dante or Azrael, but you also miss out on the likes of Corbulo or Telion.

I am likely going to push for Chapter Masters to be a one per army affair, as there's no reason for your army to include two outside of some special event.

QuoteCould you explain the idea behind "Honour your Colours?"
Think Knightly ideologies, chivalric codes, etc. In essence, the Chapter believes in turning up and loudly proclaiming "We are the Sons of Kickassia! Surrender or be destroyed by our mighty weapons!" These Chapters abhor the notion of sneaking around being stealthy, and see no honour in a victory earned by magically teleporting a dozen Terminators into the enemy lines. They want their enemy to see them coming, no matter how unwise that may be...

Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on February 23, 2013, 07:18:37 PM
Oh, would the cost of Company Specialists be doubled for a unit using Legionary? Or increased in some way if not doubled? Something like:

"If an army takes the Legionary trait and gives a unit the Company Specialist trait, pay 30 points + 3 points per man over the original 10. "
I've edited my suggestion - it now costs +3pts per model in the unit, so a Legionary squad of 20 would pay a whopping 60pts to give every Space Marine an ability. As I mention above, it would be 60pts even if half those men were Neophytes, who do not benefit - Master & Pupil isn't there to get you upgrades on the cheap!
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