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Knights of Kydonia. Little help?

Started by Scout Sergeant Mkoll, April 16, 2013, 02:38:06 PM

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Scout Sergeant Mkoll

Not entirely sure if this is the right place to start this, but I figured I plan on posting fluff once I have answers to my questions and it'd be easier to just carry on an existing topic and keep it all in one place.

This is my attempt to recreate a Chapter I made in 4th Edition using the Traits system. The traits I took gave bolt pistol/ccw and 2 special weapons per Tactical squad, but removed heavy weapons from Tacticals as well as limiting Terminator Armour and most vehicles. Originally they were going to be a severely depleted Chapter (hence the lack of high level gear), but I have since decided that there are more fluff opportunities if I set the battle that crippled them a few decades/centuries before the current timeline, allowing me to put in some more of the ideas I've had.

Chapter Name: Knights of Kydonia
Homeworld: Kydonia
Sector: Ithica Sector
Segmentum: Segmentum Obscurus
Founded: 754.M39
Geneseed: White Scars
Training: Wolves of Fenris

Codexes used: 1st Company - Codex: Space Marines. All other Companies - Codex: Space Wolves
Changes to Allies matrix: Eldar become Desperate Allies. Dark Eldar become Allies of Convenience. (I don't use allies, except maybe if I was having a big game and needed the points, so this if of little, if any, practical use, just done for the sake of the fluff really)

Reason for First Company being from a different codex: I love the idea of a bike-mounted company, so I set the geneseed as White Scars because for Marine Bikers I personally think you should go White Scars or go home. :P Trouble is, while the Space Wolves codex fits almost every other aspect of my original idea perfectly I can't get the bikers I want. They would either be so expensive as to be completely ineffective (Wolf Guard) or inferior to every other company (Swiftclaws), which makes no sense. As for not using Dark Angels and going Ravenwing. 1) Space Wolves + Dark Angels = Only when desperate. Even GW saw that. 2) I don't particularly like Dark Angels. 3) I don't like the fluff in the new book. 4) I don't like the amount of stupidity in the new book.

Reason for Second Company onwards being Space Wolves: 2 special weapons per squad, bolt pistol and combat weapon provided, Space Vikings are awesome, the Wolves and the White Scars are similar in some respects (ie: considered reckless, especially in their Primarchs, seen as "barabaric" etc)

Reason for Eldar being Desperate Allies: Quite simple really, shortly after their founding the Knights of Kydonia came across the Eldar forces led by Farseer Kialandí and Autarch Menelyavor. Initially they treated them with distrust, as befits such a capricious race. However over the years the two forces eventually became allies, fighting side by side on dozens, if not hundreds of battlefields. Together, they broke the back of a major Chaos incursion and pursued the remnants to an uninhabited world, intending to wipe them out. When they arrived however, the Chaos forces unleashed a horde of Daemons that they could not hope to withstand, even though the entire Chapter was present. Knowing reinforcements weren't far away the Knights of Kydonia adopted their tactics and fell into a holding pattern, determined to survive until help came. However before their preparations were complete the Farseer, seeing that the battle could not be won, ordered the retreat through the Webway. The Knights of Kydonia took over 70% casualties, but they survived and vowed vengeance on the cowards who had hung them out to dry.

Reason for Dark Eldar being Allies of Convenience: Long story short (I will cover the story in full at a later date), the Autarch, Menelyavor, disagreed with the Farseer's decision to retreat, feeling they owed more to the Knights of Kydonia after fighting so many battles side by side. He did not, as many Eldar on his Craftworld do, believe that that Eldar lives are worth far more than any others, even those of their allies. His continued questioning of the Farseer eventually resulted in things becoming increasingly difficult for him and he chose to take the Path of the Exodite, taking those who shared his views with him, as well as many who simply wished to take the Path of the Exodite for themselves. Eventually, circumstances drove Menelyavor to Commoragh, where he earned the respect of several Hellion clans as well as a few others, and developed a love of fighting on Skyboards.

After a series of Dark Eldar raids were conducted in the Ithica Sector by an Archon the Knights set out in pursuit and happened across Menelyavor's meagre fleet. After several narrow escapes Menelyavor sent a message to the Astartes fleet requesting that they accept a verisim link, having scavenged the device from a derelict cruiser. Begrudgingly, and believing that if nothing else it may distract the xenos long enough for them to be caught, the Chapter Master accepted. As the hologram projected the Eldar's image the Chapter Master felt a flash of recognition. Menelyavor introduced himself, explained who he was and what had transpired since that fateful battle which had crippled the Chapter. He offered various tales of battles he had fought in alongside the Knights as proof, some of which the Chapter Master himself could verify. The name had been all he needed to know who he was dealing with. He had personally fought alongside the Autarch before, the two were the closest there was to a friendship between the two factions, and he had heard of Menelyavor's messages of condolence sent to the Chapter.

While he wanted to believe that Menelyavor was not the raider he was chasing the Chapter Master could not help but remember that fateful day when the Eldar had abandoned their sworn allies. Why should they be any more trustworthy now, after decades of silence between them? However, with scans confirming that Menelyavor's fleet was not large enough to match the reports, the Chapter Master was more open to the Autarch's suggestion of a non-aggression pact between them. In exchange for this the Autarch, now called Baron by the Dark Eldar within his ranks, would raid only xenos worlds (of which there were plenty in the sector), would warn the Knights of any significant threat gathering and would provide any word of Kialandí's whereabouts, but would not reveal the location of the Craftworld. He would not condemn his world to death for the hubris of a single Farseer, no matter what the result of said hubris had been. When the Chapter Master hesitated, Menelyavor also pointed out that if he chose to he could simply outrun the Astartes fleet quite easily, and added that the Astartes could not afford to pursue him when there were so many other threats which required their attention.

Knowing that the Autarch spoke the truth, about the last part at least, the Chapter Master acknowledged the offer and agreed that he would not actively pursue the Autarch. However he pointed out that if the Autarch was caught, there would be no wasting time attempting to identify the fleet, they would simply open fire. That Autarch accepted that this was inevitable, if they were caught, and left, pointing the Astartes in the direction of a gathering Ork Waagh! as he did so.

Over the years the Autarch's fleet worked to earn the trust of the Knights of Kydonia. Many of the Astartes still harboured a deep mistrust of the Eldar, especially the few veterans of the Massacre, however over time the feelings became weaker as the Eldar provided useful information for the Astartes time and time again, and eventually the two started to take to the field together. Though the first time that happened it was unplanned and unlooked for, it was most welcome. Especially for the Fourth Company who were the recipients of the Autarch's aid. Though they would never entirely trust each other, the Eldar were still Xenos after all, much of the mistrust and hatred has faded, allowing for much easier cooperation between the two factions.

Any serious problems with my fluff so far? If so, what and why?

Also, further questions:

1) How likely/unlikely is it for an Aspect Warrior, such as a Scorpion or Banshee, to be accepted as an Arena fighter and begin to adapt to some of the Wych practices, such as not wearing any significant armour? (ie: not become a Wych, but be close enough for rule purposes?) If so, how long should such a transformation take, roughly?

2) I don't know anything about Eldar/Dark Eldar ships, but need at least a couple of classifications for the fluff I plan to write. Can anyone provide information or links for me?

3) Is it acceptable to use existing 40k characters into your fluff? Not planning on killing anyone off or anything, just thought it might be cool to have Blackmane or someone as part of the reinforcements that stop my Chapter getting obliterated.

4) What would be a roughly average recruitment rate for a Chapter? So that I can estimate the amount of time needed for the Chapter to recover from its losses and become a reasonable fighting force again.
Mkoll's Awesome Card Counter: +8

May the brave be remembered forever. Farewell our friends.

Quote from: Mabbz on June 03, 2011, 10:43:53 AM
Mkoll wins.

Quote from: LordDemon
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to catch you.

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Lord Sotek

Quote from: Scout Sergeant Mkoll on April 16, 2013, 02:38:06 PM
Not entirely sure if this is the right place to start this, but I figured I plan on posting fluff once I have answers to my questions and it'd be easier to just carry on an existing topic and keep it all in one place.

Righto! I love to tear into help critique a fresh IA. ;P I'll endeavor to be straightforward, but respectful, in conveying my thoughts.

QuoteThis is my attempt to recreate a Chapter I made in 4th Edition using the Traits system. The traits I took gave bolt pistol/ccw and 2 special weapons per Tactical squad, but removed heavy weapons from Tacticals as well as limiting Terminator Armour and most vehicles. Originally they were going to be a severely depleted Chapter (hence the lack of high level gear), but I have since decided that there are more fluff opportunities if I set the battle that crippled them a few decades/centuries before the current timeline, allowing me to put in some more of the ideas I've had.

"Travel light and swift, fight flexible, hit hard. Remember the Decimation! Avenge the First!"  ;)

Quote
Chapter Name: Knights of Kydonia
Geneseed: White Scars
Training: Wolves of Fenris
I'll reserve any judgement until I get through the whole thing and get to read your history for them, but I would point out two things that might be worth some thought:

  • White Scars and their successor chapters tend to be 'savage' / 'primitive indiginous peoples' / 'barbarian natives' themed in terms of culture and appearance. I can see how a concept of Knights, traditionally a heavy cavalry unit, can easily map to Space Marine bikes, but even apart from the fact that there's an unfortunately large number of "Knights of X/ The X Knights" chapters, it does mean you'll need to do a fair chunk of explaining as to how the massive swing in character and culture their name implies came to be.
  • Everybody loves space wolves! It's not hard to see why. They've got a lot to love and they have great character, fluff, and crunch. But the thing is, so many people love space wolves, they seem to be spending half of their time training successor chapters from other geneseed lines these days. There's also the consideration that, while Space Wolves could account for significant culture shifts from the White Scars origin, the Space Wolf cultural influence doesn't exactly lead to anything evocative of a knightly order...
  • I'd suggest dodging the old and common rut of "my chapter uses inspirations from/the codex of X chapter, so I have to work in X chapter as having a direct hand in my chapter's history." Have them be all White Scars or White Scar Successor stock, training cadre too, and just come to evolve their own differences and culture over time. If Kydonia has knightly chevalier orders, then that could be the source of it; as I mentioned, there seems to be a trend in the fluff and DIY's I've read to have white scars successors closely integrate the culture of their homeworld.

QuoteCodexes used: 1st Company - Codex: Space Marines. All other Companies - Codex: Space Wolves
Changes to Allies matrix: Eldar become Desperate Allies. Dark Eldar become Allies of Convenience. (I don't use allies, except maybe if I was having a big game and needed the points, so this if of little, if any, practical use, just done for the sake of the fluff really)
There's any number of excellent reasons for a hatred of the arrogant Craftworld scum, but I will be very intrigued to see what motivates a chapter to regard Commorite raiders as pragmatic allies, especially considering the White Scars' legendary hatred and vendetta against the DE.

Quote
Reason for Second Company onwards being Space Wolves: 2 special weapons per squad, bolt pistol and combat weapon provided, Space Vikings are awesome, the Wolves and the White Scars are similar in some respects (ie: considered reckless, especially in their Primarchs, seen as "barabaric" etc)
Not pushing an agenda, but letting you know your options- Though it seems a weird fit at first, as I suggested to another friend of mine working on a chapter with SW/White Scars theme influences, Codex: Chaos Space Marines can also do a surprisingly good job repesenting this sort of army. You can get squads of CSM with both bolter and BP/ccw, and I'm pretty sure you can get two special weapons under the right circumstances. Chaos also has fairly good bikers, of course, and the potential to load out a really face-smashy Biker Lord as a Kydonian company captain. ;)

Quote
Reason for Eldar being Desperate Allies: Quite simple really, shortly after their founding the Knights of Kydonia came across the Eldar forces led by Farseer Kialandí and Autarch Menelyavor. .... The Knights of Kydonia took over 70% casualties, but they survived and vowed vengeance on the cowards who had hung them out to dry.
Chapter tries to be the good guys, demonstrate goodwill to the Eldar, and set aside their differences to fight the good fight... and get shafted for it. Superbly 40k! Bonus points if it wasn't just a tactical withdrawal on the Eldar's part- it'd not only be so perfectly Eldar, but be a spectacular source for the Knights' white-hot hatred, if the entire 'alliance' was in fact simply a ruse, and the Farseer had intended to lead them on, earn their trust, and then leave them and then let them be decimated from the very beginning, in order to further some inscrutable goal or another. Perhaps they had a vision that the Knights would be their downfall/cause the deaths of many Eldar, and the whole affair was their way of trying to avoid this fate by luring the Knights in to the very jaws of annihilation. Of course, it would seem this Farseer did not account for the possibility that a remnant of the Knights might survive, rebuild, and swear terrifying oaths of vengeance against that craftworld/the Eldar race...

QuoteReason for Dark Eldar being Allies of Convenience: Long story short (I will cover the story in full at a later date), the Autarch, Menelyavor, disagreed with the Farseer's decision to retreat, feeling they owed more to the Knights of Kydonia after fighting so many battles side by side. He did not, as many Eldar on his Craftworld do, believe that that Eldar lives are worth far more than any others, even those of their allies. His continued questioning of the Farseer eventually resulted in things becoming increasingly difficult for him and he chose to take the Path of the Exodite, taking those who shared his views with him, as well as many who simply wished to take the Path of the Exodite for themselves. Eventually, circumstances drove Menelyavor to Commoragh, where he earned the respect of several Hellion clans as well as a few others, and developed a love of fighting on Skyboards...
Speaking from experience? Whenever you need to use the phrase 'long story short' to explain something about your Chapter, it's typically a Warning Sign.

I do like the idea of portraying an Eldar who, for once, decides to employ Eldar arrogance and obstinacy in the pursuit of upholding their race's ancient ideals of nobility and honor. I would, however, point out two things/make the following suggestions:


  • Exodites are the 'eldar hillbillies' who live on planets, have an isolationist/'commune with nature' ideology, and tend to use lower tech than craftworlders or dark eldar. Eldar who reject the Craftworlder Paths go on the Path of the Outcaste, and while this can sometimes lead to them falling utterly and joining the DE, the other 'typical' options are either Ranger... or Eldar Corsair. A superbly well suited middle ground between the Paths and the outright depravity of the DE. Corsairs are their own masters, and fight by their own rules. Corsair fleets are also usually lead by 'Corsair Princes,' many of whom are marginal or distant descendants of the ancient, pre-Fall eldar nobility.
  • Dark Eldar are depraved. Like... Seriously depraved. If Menelyavor truly joined the ranks of Commorragh, he would no longer be any sort of person Marines would associate with. Your whole schtick is that Lyavor is an Eldar of fierce honor, and honor has no place in the Dark City. However, it seems clear to me what what you're really after is Skyboards, and there's good news; Eldar Corsairs span the range from dudes like Yriel to dudes like Sliscus, and their ranks tend to include both ex-Craftworlders fed up with the Paths for some reason, and dark eldar who want a way out of the constant waking nightmare that is life in Commorragh and Kabalite life.
  • I would suggest retconning Menelayvor to an honor-obsessed Autarch who breaks with his Craftworld, remains to fight by the Knights' side during the Decimation, and then leaves and becomes a Corsair Prince afterwards. This still gives him ample opportunity to come into contact with skyboard-using eldar warriors and decide hey, those skyboard things are really cool. You'd still use the DE rules on tabletop, but in terms of fluff it lets you keep Lyavor a much more heroic and honorable character, one whom the Knights could be moved to return the respect of. Because he IS a corsair, one who might well raid Imperial worlds every now and then, the Knights would never truly welcome him in full trust and friendship, but they can still work out a sort of unspoken gentleman's accord due to recognizing each other's honor and worth. I can see the Knights pulling a Commodore Norrington to Corsair Lyavor's Jack Sparrow, but Hellion Boss Lyavor I can only see them hunting down like a dog.


Quote1) How likely/unlikely is it for an Aspect Warrior, such as a Scorpion or Banshee, to be accepted as an Arena fighter and begin to adapt to some of the Wych practices, such as not wearing any significant armour? (ie: not become a Wych, but be close enough for rule purposes?) If so, how long should such a transformation take, roughly?
Considering that Dark Eldar loathe craftworlders and delight in any opportunity to torment or belittle them, not likely. Considering that the founder of the Incubi is implied to be the fallen Phoenix Lord of the Striking Scorpions, not impossible. However, I would really suggest going the Corsair route I mention above.

Quote2) I don't know anything about Eldar/Dark Eldar ships, but need at least a couple of classifications for the fluff I plan to write. Can anyone provide information or links for me?
Eldar and DE ships are more fragile than Imperial ships in terms of physical durability, and they don't have conventional shields. However, they are very fast and maneuverable because they use solar sails instead of conventional engines, and they are SNEAKY as all get out, using loads of advanced tech to completely scramble enemy targetting systems and appear as near-totally invisible, so that even though they're fragile they're absurdly difficult to hit solidly.

As to specific marks, Games Workshop still has the rules for the old Specialist Games like BFG, if you do a bit of digging. They're all available as free PDF files, and several contain information about specific classes of Eldar and Dark Eldar ships. The Lexicanum is also generally a good source for information, as they have fairly good articles on BFG ships.

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3) Is it acceptable to use existing 40k characters into your fluff? Not planning on killing anyone off or anything, just thought it might be cool to have Blackmane or someone as part of the reinforcements that stop my Chapter getting obliterated.

It is not impossible. However, this is generally a dicy idea. It relies very, very heavily on the skill with which it is executed, and the difficulty of doing even remotely a decent job of it goes up exponentially with how powerful and famous the character in question is. Other fans are automatically on their guard when original characters and ultra-prominent canon characters get thrown together, and even the tiniest flaw or discrepancy will often cause them to react negatively to the interaction, rather than it coming across as the super cool meeting you wanted it to be.

Ragnar in particular is one of THE most famous Space Wolves, who are one of THE most famous chapters, and his life has been held pretty thoroughly under the microscope by GW and Black Library. I would advise any interactions being fairly distant and incidental, and in general, tread very, very carefully if you venture into these waters.


Hope you found this helpful!
Quote from: Saulus on March 17, 2011, 06:16:56 PM
Often I hear delusional ramble like "I painted and collected my army as ultramarine tyranid hunters....but Pedro is really good, so now I'm using him, but I'm just going to call him Jimbob-Fistpumper, cause that fits with my

Scout Sergeant Mkoll

Thanks for the reply Sotek. :)

1) Ah. Yeah, I hadn't really thought about the name clashing with the barbarian culture of the White Scars + Wolves. Shall have to give that one some thought. Had an idea of there being a lot of honour in warrior castes on Kydonia, even to the point of "Your best warrior vs my best" being fought to prevent massive casualties crippling the tribes. Could perhaps expand on that a little more. I was going down an Ancient Greece route (hence the name) but I may include other elements to explain a surge in cavalry as from what I remember the Greeks used cavalry, but not exactly in large numbers.

2) The problem with having White Scars train my chapter is that, currently, they're quite a way apart (in terms of homeworlds at least) and I wasn't sure if it could be argued that when the White Scars were training them they found that the Knights favour those tactics/weapons or something to explain the 2 x special weapon and heavy weapons only appearing in the Heavy Support squads. If it's feasible that could/would happen, then I can go with that and scrap the bit about being trained by Fenrisians.

3) I know the Chaos codex can represent the Chapter quite well, but I'd prefer to use loyalist rules unless/until I decide to take them renegade. That and I don't trust myself not to add Marks and other blatantly non-loyalist items just because they're cool. :P

4) I hadn't actually thought much about the Eldar's motivations for running like girls beyond "Oh gods, we can't win against this" if I'm honest. They were only really there to explain the alliance between the Knights and the Autarch/Baron. However I love the idea of it being planned all along. I may have to steal that. :P

5) Sorry, my mistake. I just used the wrong term there. I'll remedy that now. Also, I didn't exactly mean that Menelayvor became one of the Dark Eldar, simply that he found ways to earn their respect (mainly fighting) so that he could get the supplies he needed at a more affordable price and recruit a small number of them to help him.

I will also reconsider him staying in the fight as it would go a long way to explain why the Knights trust him

6) The reason I asked about the Aspect Warrior -> Wych thing was I was considering having Layvor's second in command work through the ranks in the Arenas, helping improve his status as part of his quest to make supplies affordable for him. After all, someone you don't know anything about the Dark Eldar are likely to double the price, someone they know is capable of decimating Genestealers, they're probably more reasonable about costs. :P

7) Thanks. I think I've got some BFG files on my laptop, I'll have a look through them and google the rest if I need them. :)

8) Ragnar was just an example (First Wolves character that sprang to mind apart from Bjorn and Russ :P ). I'll bear your advice in mind though if I decide to go down that path. :)
Mkoll's Awesome Card Counter: +8

May the brave be remembered forever. Farewell our friends.

Quote from: Mabbz on June 03, 2011, 10:43:53 AM
Mkoll wins.

Quote from: LordDemon
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to catch you.

[img]http

Lord Sotek

#3
Quote from: Scout Sergeant Mkoll on April 16, 2013, 05:01:08 PM
Thanks for the reply Sotek. :)
Glad to help, brainstorming for original chapters is fun. :)

Quote1) Ah. Yeah, I hadn't really thought about the name clashing with the barbarian culture of the White Scars + Wolves. Shall have to give that one some thought. Had an idea of there being a lot of honour in warrior castes on Kydonia, even to the point of "Your best warrior vs my best" being fought to prevent massive casualties crippling the tribes. Could perhaps expand on that a little more. I was going down an Ancient Greece route (hence the name) but I may include other elements to explain a surge in cavalry as from what I remember the Greeks used cavalry, but not exactly in large numbers.
Keep in mind that you don't have to appropriate a culture wholesale. Ancient greecian tactics revolved almost entirely around the phalanx, but nothing is stopping you from having a greece-like culture with warrior-noble elites in glorious, gleaming bronze fullplate astride horses...

Battles decided by champion was A Thing in Grecian culture, as well as being very space marinely. The idea that the Kydonians are a proud and martial people, but whose city-states often resolve their inevitable prickly differences by champions' duels so that they can save their armies' strength for more important conflicts is one I rather like. A merger of Ancient Greek aesthetics and civilization with certain elements of feudal european culture could be very interesting for a homeworld.


Quote2) The problem with having White Scars train my chapter is that, currently, they're quite a way apart (in terms of homeworlds at least) and I wasn't sure if it could be argued that when the White Scars were training them they found that the Knights favour those tactics/weapons or something to explain the 2 x special weapon and heavy weapons only appearing in the Heavy Support squads. If it's feasible that could/would happen, then I can go with that and scrap the bit about being trained by Fenrisians.

The way training a new chapter works is that a worthy captain and marines he handpicks are taken from the originator/mentor chapter, and redeployed to the marines from the new chapter. Those marines are usually then considered to have become marines of the new chapter, especially if they're of the same genestock; the captain in question often becomes the new Chapter's first Chapter Master. The whole chapter doesn't take part in training their successor, and it's relatively easy to ship a handful of astartes out to where they need to go. It's also worth pointing out that a Captain both skilled enough to train a new chapter of marines, and also willing to give up his place within his own chapter to do so, is probably going to be someone who has reasons to feel he doesn't quite fit in with his chapter's mold, and has ideas about doing things differently...

There is also the fact that your chapter does not have to be trained by the White Scars directly. Their mentor group could have been from any of the White Scars' preexisting successors, each of which already has certain differences from their forebearers, but in all cases is still equally White Scars geneseed. When it comes to significant differences between a chapter and its progenitor legion, divergence from divergence is a lot easier and more believable than extreme divergence straight from the source.

Quote3) I know the Chaos codex can represent the Chapter quite well, but I'd prefer to use loyalist rules unless/until I decide to take them renegade. That and I don't trust myself not to add Marks and other blatantly non-loyalist items just because they're cool. :P
Stylistic choice, but I respect it.

Quote
4) I hadn't actually thought much about the Eldar's motivations for running like girls beyond "Oh gods, we can't win against this" if I'm honest. They were only really there to explain the alliance between the Knights and the Autarch/Baron. However I love the idea of it being planned all along. I may have to steal that. :P
I'm glad you said that. Again, speaking from experience, one of the things to be most wary of in your own writing is anything that has minimal internal justification and only really happens because 'plot said so.' These are often by far the weakest parts of your writing, and they cry out for more attention and revision. When you don't heed that cry, your detractors tend to. :P

Quote5) Sorry, my mistake. I just used the wrong term there. I'll remedy that now. Also, I didn't exactly mean that Menelayvor became one of the Dark Eldar, simply that he found ways to earn their respect (mainly fighting) so that he could get the supplies he needed at a more affordable price and recruit a small number of them to help him.
No worries. And being able to get supplies and recruits off of DE goes with the territory of being a Corsair. I would also mention that there are numerous Corsair ports and trade hubs in their own right; a renegade from the Craftworlds has options beyond merely looting or crawling to the perfidious Dark Eldar.

QuoteI will also reconsider him staying in the fight as it would go a long way to explain why the Knights trust him.
Yeah. If 'Layvor skidaddled with the rest and just showed up later talking about how totally bad he felt about it, the Knights would probably go "Pff, yeah fucking right, you lying Eldar scum!" and shoot him. If he actually argues against his own group and then leads his warriors to break away from them and stand side by side with the Knights, then that is a sufficiently grand and monumentally unexpected gesture of integrity and solidarity to win a Space Marine's respect.

I would also suggest giving him additional motives to stand beside the Knights beyond simply "he is a very honorable Eldar" and "because the Knights are the good guys." If, during the course of his Craftworld's pretend alliance, 'Layvor's command got into serious trouble and the Knights came charging in of their own volition, putting themselves at risk to save the day and protect their 'allies', then that might be the sort of event that convinces 'Layvor that these Mon'keigh know something of the meaning of honor too, and begin to earn his respect and gratitude.

Quote6) The reason I asked about the Aspect Warrior -> Wych thing was I was considering having Layvor's second in command work through the ranks in the Arenas, helping improve his status as part of his quest to make supplies affordable for him. After all, someone you don't know anything about the Dark Eldar are likely to double the price, someone they know is capable of decimating Genestealers, they're probably more reasonable about costs. :P
I'm sure Layvor and his lieutenants have earned some of their respect and connections on the strength of their badassery and the swiftness of their swords, but I don't think it would really work that way, or that Layvor would really want to be snuggling in close to the Kabals when he has other means (Corsair ports, contracts with Exodites) of getting supplies he needs. The Eldar and Dark Eldar are like siblings who despise each other's guts, for whom the only thing that keeps them from each other's throats is the fact that they're still technically family, and there's a lot of ancient shared rivals and other assorted assholes out there trying to extinguish that family wholesale.

EDIT: Thinking further on your Aspect Warrior in the Arena idea, I just had a very fun and potentially interesting little thought. Dark eldar society is very 'you keep what you kill' - it's all about gaining power by shanking the guys currently in charge of you, and keeping it by being harder to shank than your predecessor. It is also not merciful to any instability or show of weakness. Your Aspect Warrior lieutenant may well have wound up fighting a Wych Cult leader, a champion of the arenas, at some point, and won... in which case, the Wyches said leader used to boss around start acknowledging the lieutenant as their new boss, because without a boss they're dogmeat for the other Wych gangs. Now said bemused and probably exasperated lieutenant has to keep a bunch of Wyches in tow and in line, but on the flipside, those Wyches are a key into understanding the culture and mindset of the Dark Eldar, so that it can be manipulated to the Corsair's profit. This allows you your Commoragh connections and "lieutenant who wound up involved with a bunch of Wyches," without the fairly implausible mechanism of a Craftworlder becoming a serious competitor in the DE wych arena circuit.
Quote from: Saulus on March 17, 2011, 06:16:56 PM
Often I hear delusional ramble like "I painted and collected my army as ultramarine tyranid hunters....but Pedro is really good, so now I'm using him, but I'm just going to call him Jimbob-Fistpumper, cause that fits with my

Scout Sergeant Mkoll

Quote from: Lord Sotek on April 16, 2013, 05:34:00 PM
Keep in mind that you don't have to appropriate a culture wholesale. Ancient greecian tactics revolved almost entirely around the phalanx, but nothing is stopping you from having a greece-like culture with warrior-noble elites in glorious, gleaming bronze fullplate astride horses...

Battles decided by champion was A Thing in Grecian culture, as well as being very space marinely. The idea that the Kydonians are a proud and martial people, but whose city-states often resolve their inevitable prickly differences by champions' duels so that they can save their armies' strength for more important conflicts is one I rather like. A merger of Ancient Greek aesthetics and civilization with certain elements of feudal european culture could be very interesting for a homeworld.
Yeah, I know I don't need to import the culture wholesale. I thought it might be easier (I am more than a little lazy at times), but coming up with my own mix of stuff would be better and is probably what I'll end up doing. :)

Quote from: Lord Sotek on April 16, 2013, 05:34:00 PM
The way training a new chapter works is that a worthy captain and marines he handpicks are taken from the originator/mentor chapter, and redeployed to the marines from the new chapter. Those marines are usually then considered to have become marines of the new chapter, especially if they're of the same genestock; the captain in question often becomes the new Chapter's first Chapter Master. The whole chapter doesn't take part in training their successor, and it's relatively easy to ship a handful of astartes out to where they need to go. It's also worth pointing out that a Captain both skilled enough to train a new chapter of marines, and also willing to give up his place within his own chapter to do so, is probably going to be someone who has reasons to feel he doesn't quite fit in with his chapter's mold, and has ideas about doing things differently...

There is also the fact that your chapter does not have to be trained by the White Scars directly. Their mentor group could have been from any of the White Scars' preexisting successors, each of which already has certain differences from their forebearers, but in all cases is still equally White Scars geneseed. When it comes to significant differences between a chapter and its progenitor legion, divergence from divergence is a lot easier and more believable than extreme divergence straight from the source.
Sounds fair enough. I'll scratch the Fenrisian training then. :)

Quote from: Lord Sotek on April 16, 2013, 05:34:00 PM
I'm glad you said that. Again, speaking from experience, one of the things to be most wary of in your own writing is anything that has minimal internal justification and only really happens because 'plot said so.' These are often by far the weakest parts of your writing, and they cry out for more attention and revision. When you don't heed that cry, your detractors tend to. :P
Nice to get constructive comments given the response my last writing got lol. :) Will work on this idea more, though for now it'll probably just be mentioned briefly in the argument between Farseer and Autarch as I'd like to get where things are straight and then worry about the how later. A bit like writing an essay, I find it's easier to leave the introduction till last.

Quote from: Lord Sotek on April 16, 2013, 05:34:00 PM
No worries. And being able to get supplies and recruits off of DE goes with the territory of being a Corsair. I would also mention that there are numerous Corsair ports and trade hubs in their own right; a renegade from the Craftworlds has options beyond merely looting or crawling to the perfidious Dark Eldar.
Sounds fair enough. Makes sense that there would be mutual trading posts for Eldar and Dark Eldar.

Quote from: Lord Sotek on April 16, 2013, 05:34:00 PM
QuoteI will also reconsider him staying in the fight as it would go a long way to explain why the Knights trust him.
Yeah. If 'Layvor skidaddled with the rest and just showed up later talking about how totally bad he felt about it, the Knights would probably go "Pff, yeah fucking right, you lying Eldar scum!" and shoot him. If he actually argues against his own group and then leads his warriors to break away from them and stand side by side with the Knights, then that is a sufficiently grand and monumentally unexpected gesture of integrity and solidarity to win a Space Marine's respect.

I would also suggest giving him additional motives to stand beside the Knights beyond simply "he is a very honorable Eldar" and "because the Knights are the good guys." If, during the course of his Craftworld's pretend alliance, 'Layvor's command got into serious trouble and the Knights came charging in of their own volition, putting themselves at risk to save the day and protect their 'allies', then that might be the sort of event that convinces 'Layvor that these Mon'keigh know something of the meaning of honor too, and begin to earn his respect and gratitude.
Well, I have already alluded to the Chapter Master and Autarch owing their lives to each other over the years in the "short" explanation. Throwing in an incident in the largest battle the Chapter faces shouldn't be too difficult. :)

Quote from: Lord Sotek on April 16, 2013, 05:34:00 PM
I'm sure Layvor and his lieutenants have earned some of their respect and connections on the strength of their badassery and the swiftness of their swords, but I don't think it would really work that way, or that Layvor would really want to be snuggling in close to the Kabals when he has other means (Corsair ports, contracts with Exodites) of getting supplies he needs. The Eldar and Dark Eldar are like siblings who despise each other's guts, for whom the only thing that keeps them from each other's throats is the fact that they're still technically family, and there's a lot of ancient shared rivals and other assorted assholes out there trying to extinguish that family wholesale.

EDIT: Thinking further on your Aspect Warrior in the Arena idea, I just had a very fun and potentially interesting little thought. Dark eldar society is very 'you keep what you kill' - it's all about gaining power by shanking the guys currently in charge of you, and keeping it by being harder to shank than your predecessor. It is also not merciful to any instability or show of weakness. Your Aspect Warrior lieutenant may well have wound up fighting a Wych Cult leader, a champion of the arenas, at some point, and won... in which case, the Wyches said leader used to boss around start acknowledging the lieutenant as their new boss, because without a boss they're dogmeat for the other Wych gangs. Now said bemused and probably exasperated lieutenant has to keep a bunch of Wyches in tow and in line, but on the flipside, those Wyches are a key into understanding the culture and mindset of the Dark Eldar, so that it can be manipulated to the Corsair's profit. This allows you your Commoragh connections and "lieutenant who wound up involved with a bunch of Wyches," without the fairly implausible mechanism of a Craftworlder becoming a serious competitor in the DE wych arena circuit.
The "Keep what you kill" mentality is what I was going for with Menelayvor becoming the boss of some Hellions, I just wasn't quite sure how far to take it. His lieutenant doing the same in another part of Commoragh society would still be doable as it would open more doors for them, get them more warriors etc. :)
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Quote from: Mabbz on June 03, 2011, 10:43:53 AM
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Just going to start on the 'further questions' for now, and then double back to the rest at a later junction.

Quote from: Scout Sergeant Mkoll on April 16, 2013, 02:38:06 PM
1) How likely/unlikely is it for an Aspect Warrior, such as a Scorpion or Banshee, to be accepted as an Arena fighter and begin to adapt to some of the Wych practices, such as not wearing any significant armour? (ie: not become a Wych, but be close enough for rule purposes?) If so, how long should such a transformation take, roughly?
It is highly unlikely, bordering on impossible.

First off, the Aspects are very, very rigidly defined. An Aspect Warrior is not simply a trained soldier; they are a soldier that trains exclusively in a very niche style of combat. Moreover, once an Eldar joins the Aspect Temple, that Aspect becomes the entire focus of their existence. Eldar do not deviate from the Path lightly, and anyone who is joining an Aspect shrine is unlikely to still be so wild and reckless as to be drawn to the 'Path of the Outsider' and seek to abandon their Craftworld ways.

The closest you are likely to get is some kind of ex-Corsair, one who dabbled in one or more Aspect paths but still felt compelled to move on from their Craftworld and was drawn into the Corsairs before, ultimately, winding up in Commoragh. Such a character is unlikely to ever return to Craftworld life, however, and even if they did and became an Aspect Warrior again, they would not be free to customise their Aspect's equipment.

So yeah; Aspect Warriors inspired by Wyches? Virtually impossible. Ex-Aspect Corsair / Outcast picking a few choice tricks up and combining that knowledge with Craftworld-learned combat techniques? More probable, but you'd still not really see such an individual within a Craftworld's command structure.

Quote2) I don't know anything about Eldar/Dark Eldar ships, but need at least a couple of classifications for the fluff I plan to write. Can anyone provide information or links for me?

Alas, GW got lazy with the Eldar, likely because they are not Space Marines. The Corsairs were extensively detailed (relatively speaking; they still only had half as many ships as Imperial / Chaos fleets), giving us two Cruisers, two Light Cruisers, half a dozen Escorts and a vessel that borders on a battleship... plus at least one type of Pirate Outpost structure.

By contrast, the Craftworld and Dark Eldar fleets were... generic. The Dark Eldar doubly so. They have one cruiser, the "Torture" class, and one escort, the "Corsair" class. These two ships can be kitted out in any number of ways, meaning that the name is absolutely meaningless; the only common factor is they all tend to have a lot of batteries.

As such, the only real option with the Dark Eldar is to simply stick to generics; Escorts and Cruisers, with their capabilities being whatever you want them to be because we honestly have nothing to say "class x doesn't have y".

Quote3) Is it acceptable to use existing 40k characters into your fluff? Not planning on killing anyone off or anything, just thought it might be cool to have Blackmane or someone as part of the reinforcements that stop my Chapter getting obliterated.

I guess this one is personal preference really, but when dealing with 'fixed' aspects of 40K lore I find a light touch is best. It is fine to say "my chapter fought on Armageddon", for example, but it is quite another to claim they were instrumental in defeating Ghazkhull.

The same rule applies here really. The less said the better. Blackmane being present is not in and of itself an issue, I'd just suggest writing with the mindset of "is it plausible that nobody has felt the need to mention this event before?" If the answer is yes, then it works.

Quote4) What would be a roughly average recruitment rate for a Chapter? So that I can estimate the amount of time needed for the Chapter to recover from its losses and become a reasonable fighting force again.
Astartes recruitment is always a bit tricky, since the specific numbers on recruitment rates seem to wobble about a bit. A number bandied about is "one in a hundred" are worthy of being Space Marines, but there's rarely any context for that.

I think it is fair to conclude that refers to the population in general; that of all the potential applicants a Chapter finds and views, 99 will be rejected one way or the other. This may or may not include those who are lost after the initial phases of indoctrination, since it is not uncommon for neophytes to die due to tissue rejection or the necessarily lethal nature of their training process.

From a purely biological standpoint, it takes about six years to turn a Human into a Space Marine. This means that if you need to step up your Neophyte intake for whatever reason, there will be a six year lag between starting and seeing those new troops in action. Arguably they'd be Scouts by year five or so, but to be safe I'd say you're looking at ten years before you get 'true' Space Marines from your efforts.

But that isn't the issue; the problems come from the Gene-seed. We don't really know how much a Chapter keeps, we only know that the Progenoids are one of the last implants, and that it takes 5 and 10 years respectively for them to mature. That means those recruits you made won't offer up their first Progenoid for another five years, and the ten-year implant is pretty much impossible to get without causing major trauma (hence why it is taken from the dead, not extracted from the living).

So, there's your maths to work on. It takes fifteen years for your first batch of recruits to give you the gene-seed need to make your second batch. We'll ignore the ten-year Progenoid because A) they might not live that long, and B) if that has been harvested it means they are dead and so you're a Marine down, making the replacement Marine a "balancing the books" affair.

Personally, I would say that, with all these factors considered, it should take between fifty and two hundred years to 're-found' a Company under active Chapter conditions.

When I've done my little program, I can give you an indication of how long it'd take under ideal conditions too. :P
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Quote from: Wargamer on April 17, 2013, 01:00:01 PM
It is highly unlikely, bordering on impossible.

First off, the Aspects are very, very rigidly defined. An Aspect Warrior is not simply a trained soldier; they are a soldier that trains exclusively in a very niche style of combat. Moreover, once an Eldar joins the Aspect Temple, that Aspect becomes the entire focus of their existence. Eldar do not deviate from the Path lightly, and anyone who is joining an Aspect shrine is unlikely to still be so wild and reckless as to be drawn to the 'Path of the Outsider' and seek to abandon their Craftworld ways.

The closest you are likely to get is some kind of ex-Corsair, one who dabbled in one or more Aspect paths but still felt compelled to move on from their Craftworld and was drawn into the Corsairs before, ultimately, winding up in Commoragh. Such a character is unlikely to ever return to Craftworld life, however, and even if they did and became an Aspect Warrior again, they would not be free to customise their Aspect's equipment.

So yeah; Aspect Warriors inspired by Wyches? Virtually impossible. Ex-Aspect Corsair / Outcast picking a few choice tricks up and combining that knowledge with Craftworld-learned combat techniques? More probable, but you'd still not really see such an individual within a Craftworld's command structure.
Ok, so a Craftworlder who becomes Corsair could do this to some extent? I think, given that the Eldar I have in mind have a fairly serious vendetta against a Farseer means they're unlikely to become Craftworlders again anyhow.

Quote from: Wargamer on April 17, 2013, 01:00:01 PM
Alas, GW got lazy with the Eldar, likely because they are not Space Marines. The Corsairs were extensively detailed (relatively speaking; they still only had half as many ships as Imperial / Chaos fleets), giving us two Cruisers, two Light Cruisers, half a dozen Escorts and a vessel that borders on a battleship... plus at least one type of Pirate Outpost structure.

By contrast, the Craftworld and Dark Eldar fleets were... generic. The Dark Eldar doubly so. They have one cruiser, the "Torture" class, and one escort, the "Corsair" class. These two ships can be kitted out in any number of ways, meaning that the name is absolutely meaningless; the only common factor is they all tend to have a lot of batteries.

As such, the only real option with the Dark Eldar is to simply stick to generics; Escorts and Cruisers, with their capabilities being whatever you want them to be because we honestly have nothing to say "class x doesn't have y".
Fair enough. Tis a shame that happened. Ah well. I'll just have to keep the space-related stuff to a minimum or find out more about the capability of enemy ships at a later date so I have something to work with.

Quote from: Wargamer on April 17, 2013, 01:00:01 PM
I guess this one is personal preference really, but when dealing with 'fixed' aspects of 40K lore I find a light touch is best. It is fine to say "my chapter fought on Armageddon", for example, but it is quite another to claim they were instrumental in defeating Ghazkhull.

The same rule applies here really. The less said the better. Blackmane being present is not in and of itself an issue, I'd just suggest writing with the mindset of "is it plausible that nobody has felt the need to mention this event before?" If the answer is yes, then it works.
As I say, Blackmane was perhaps a poor choice of example, but the Wolves were first in my head because of the original idea, and the proximity of Fenris to Kydonia. Will tread carefully if I go with this.

Quote from: Wargamer on April 17, 2013, 01:00:01 PM
Astartes recruitment is always a bit tricky, since the specific numbers on recruitment rates seem to wobble about a bit. A number bandied about is "one in a hundred" are worthy of being Space Marines, but there's rarely any context for that.

I think it is fair to conclude that refers to the population in general; that of all the potential applicants a Chapter finds and views, 99 will be rejected one way or the other. This may or may not include those who are lost after the initial phases of indoctrination, since it is not uncommon for neophytes to die due to tissue rejection or the necessarily lethal nature of their training process.

From a purely biological standpoint, it takes about six years to turn a Human into a Space Marine. This means that if you need to step up your Neophyte intake for whatever reason, there will be a six year lag between starting and seeing those new troops in action. Arguably they'd be Scouts by year five or so, but to be safe I'd say you're looking at ten years before you get 'true' Space Marines from your efforts.

But that isn't the issue; the problems come from the Gene-seed. We don't really know how much a Chapter keeps, we only know that the Progenoids are one of the last implants, and that it takes 5 and 10 years respectively for them to mature. That means those recruits you made won't offer up their first Progenoid for another five years, and the ten-year implant is pretty much impossible to get without causing major trauma (hence why it is taken from the dead, not extracted from the living).

So, there's your maths to work on. It takes fifteen years for your first batch of recruits to give you the gene-seed need to make your second batch. We'll ignore the ten-year Progenoid because A) they might not live that long, and B) if that has been harvested it means they are dead and so you're a Marine down, making the replacement Marine a "balancing the books" affair.

Personally, I would say that, with all these factors considered, it should take between fifty and two hundred years to 're-found' a Company under active Chapter conditions.

When I've done my little program, I can give you an indication of how long it'd take under ideal conditions too. :P
The figures you provided on fb look good. :) I'm thinking of having it take longer to rebuild the Chapter than it should to further back up the fact that they don't adhere to the Codex Astartes regarding Chapter size. After such losses it makes sense to ensure they don't become so crippled as a force again, and an prolonged rebuild period (for reasons I'll decide later)would reinforce that.
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Quote from: Mabbz on June 03, 2011, 10:43:53 AM
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