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Wolf Brigade [IG Unit]

Started by Restayvien, May 17, 2013, 10:14:43 PM

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Restayvien

+++IN PROGRESS+++

Relating to this thread I thought I'd come up with some rules for a unit of these guys...here's the first draft. The closest equivalent weapon in 40k really is the Heavy Stubber, but that's far too powerful for massed IG infantry so I've come up with a lighter variant.


WOLF BRIGADE
The Wolf Brigade... ... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ......... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...... ...




WOLF BRIGADE SQUAD.....................................................................................65 POINTS


   WsBsSTWIALdSv
Wolf Brigade
3
3
3 3 1 3 1 7 4+
Wolf Brigade Sgt.
3
3
3 3 1 3 2 8 4+

Composition:

  • 1 Wolf Brigade Sergeant
  • 4 Wolf Brigade
Wargear:
  • Carapace Armour
  • Stubber
  • Close-combat Weapon
  • Frag Grenades
Unit Type:
  • Infantry
Special Rules:
  • Civil Supression: Any unit taking one or more unsaved wounds from a Wolf Brigade unit must take a pinning test.



Options:

  • May have up to five
    - additional Wolf Brigade..........12 points per model
  • The Wolf Brigade Sergeant may exchange his Stubber for:
    - Bolt pistol or boltgun......................................free
    - Shotgun..........................................................free
    - Power Fist..............................................15 points
  • Up to two Wolf Brigade may replace their Stubbers with:
    - Flamer.....................................5 points per model
    - Grenade Launcher...................5 points per model
Transport:
  • The squad may take a Chimera as a dedicated transport (see IG codex page 99 for points cost).

WEAPON

WeaponRangeStr.APType
Stubber24"46Heavy 3

Narric

Looks cool so far. Though I wonder why you didn't go with ye olde Hot-shot lasgun (The one thats AP5).

I don't think Heavy 3 is really justifyable. I'm pretty Sure Space Marine bolters by fluff would be Heavy 10 :P (Though I'm sure someone will correct me on that XD)

What kind of Special Rules are you considering?

With Respirators like that, maybe they could be immune to grenades like GK Pysk-out, or Tau Photon.

I feel it could do with more to differ it from both the Storm Trooper unit, and Vets. (Stubber already mentioned)

Chicop76

#2
Quote from: Narric on May 17, 2013, 10:25:37 PM
Looks cool so far. Though I wonder why you didn't go with ye olde Hot-shot lasgun (The one thats AP5).

I don't think Heavy 3 is really justifyable. I'm pretty Sure Space Marine bolters by fluff would be Heavy 10 :P (Though I'm sure someone will correct me on that XD)

What kind of Special Rules are you considering?

With Respirators like that, maybe they could be immune to grenades like GK Pysk-out, or Tau Photon.

I feel it could do with more to differ it from both the Storm Trooper unit, and Vets. (Stubber already mentioned)

Looking at the anime clips a stubber or heavy bolter would fit. I think the stubber makes sense for them to have. I thought it was strength 4 with 3 shots.

With the resperator I would go with the old guard codex rules. I can tell you if you can't lok them up.

I would make them bs 4 though since veterans are bs 4. Also they should all be leadership 8 like veterans.

If not I would lower the point cost. 10 points is what a vet armed the same way would cost. The stubber I can see raising the model's cost to two points.

The heavy stubber is heavy 3. It's obvious they are carrying heavy weapons. I am surprised they can run as fast as they do with all that gear.


Narric

Looking at the statline for a Heavy Stubber, and a Heavy Bolter, the "Stubber" seems to be just a HB with less strenght, or force behind it, but the same armour penetration power.

"Stub Guns" by the rulebook are essentially Laspistols, same with Autopistols.

As these guys are essentially Guardsmen, i find it hard to believe they can carry Heavy Bolters on each man.

I'd be comfortable with the Stubber being four shots at Str4, but no ap. Possibly Assault rather than Heavy? Just my thoughts.

Restayvien

#4
Quote from: Narric on May 17, 2013, 10:25:37 PM
Looks cool so far. Though I wonder why you didn't go with ye olde Hot-shot lasgun (The one thats AP5).

I don't think Heavy 3 is really justifyable. I'm pretty Sure Space Marine bolters by fluff would be Heavy 10 :P (Though I'm sure someone will correct me on that XD)

What kind of Special Rules are you considering?

With Respirators like that, maybe they could be immune to grenades like GK Pysk-out, or Tau Photon.

I feel it could do with more to differ it from both the Storm Trooper unit, and Vets. (Stubber already mentioned)
Thanks. I didn't go with the hot-shot lasgun simply because I wanted to stick as close to the guys in the film as possible.

Yeah...the weapon is tricky. I made it Heavy 3 for several reasons:
- They never fire those weapons whilst walking around, and making them count as Heavy forces the models to stay stationary when firing.
- The rate of fire of these would likely far exceed a Boltgun at around 1200-1500rpm (the rounds are far smaller too hence the lower strength and AP).

I'm going to take a look at the rulebook to see if there are appropriate special rules. I was thinking along similar lines to you on that one...also thinking of slow and purposeful or something as these guys tend to lumber around a bit.

Quote from: Chicop76 on May 17, 2013, 10:31:34 PM
Looking at the anime clips a stubber or heavy bolter would fit. I think the stubber makes sense for them to have. I thought it was strength 4 with 3 shots.
With the resperator I would go with the old guard codex rules. I can tell you if you can't lok them up.
I would make them bs 4 though since veterans are bs 4. Also they should all be leadership 8 like veterans.
I agree about the style of weapon, although I think Str 4 would be overkill as Bolters are Str 4 and use much larger caliber rounds. I don't have the old respirator rules.  :-\

I did consider making them BS 4, but thought it might make them a bit OP with their guns. Also it would put them on a par with Storm Troopers and Marines - the best the Imperium has to offer. I haven't got around to writing the fluff yet but these guys are essentially a section of the IG dedicated to assisting the Adeptus Arbites put down particularly volatile civil unrest. They are military but they generally assist the police. They get attached to IG forces sometimes but they aren't trained to the standard of Marines or Storm Troopers and although they will have seen a lot of combat against gangers and such they won't have been in many brutal wars like Veterans.

Quote from: Narric on May 17, 2013, 10:37:31 PM
Looking at the statline for a Heavy Stubber, and a Heavy Bolter, the "Stubber" seems to be just a HB with less strenght, or force behind it, but the same armour penetration power.
"Stub Guns" by the rulebook are essentially Laspistols, same with Autopistols.
As these guys are essentially Guardsmen, i find it hard to believe they can carry Heavy Bolters on each man.
I gave it less strength and significantly less range. It makes sense they would have equal to/better AP than a Heavy Bolter as a bolter (special rounds aside) is designed to slam into targets and explode, rather than to punch through like a high caliber bullet. Stub weapons are just essentially the equivalent to modern weaponry. The Heavy Stubber is like a 50.cal machinegun on steroids. The gun these guys carry is an MG 42 so I was working on the basis of a Light-Heavy Stubber (but 'Medium Stubber' didn't have a good ring to it)! :P

Quote
I'd be comfortable with the Stubber being four shots at Str4, but no ap. Possibly Assault rather than Heavy? Just my thoughts.
Hmm, that seems a strange way around to me. No way these rounds would do as much damage as a bolter, but they have far smaller surface area and would cut through anything less than very decent flak armour. How does Str3 AP 6 sound?

Thanks guys.  8) I got ninja'd twice...


-Edit-
Looking at special rules...

- Shred is interesting, though probably uncalled for as other fast firing weapons don't have it. If it was used to set these guys apart then the weapon would probably need a weaker stat-line.
- Relentless would be pretty cool...although in the spirit of the original characters in a sense, I think it would allow them to move around a bit too freely with those guns.
- Slow and Purposeful might be better.
- Stubborn is a possibility. These men have to stand toe-to-toe with thousands of 'rioters' without giving them any ground for days at a time. Not too OP.

Chicop76

I would say reduce them to 10 points as it stands. I see your point, but thinking about tau, etc. I would make the stubber still do what it normally does. Strength 4 is not ground breaking and ap 6 is not that awesome.

To me it makes sense to stick with the weapon profile unless you completly change the weapon itself. It is a higher calibur weapon and I feel that str 3 doesn't show that.

I can see how good a squad can be especially if given prescience. However let's put it this way. 10 of these guys fire 30 times which 15 hit which wounds marines 7.5 times killing 2 marines. 8 marines roughly the same cost of the squad fires 8 times and hit 6 causing 4 wounds killing 2 of your guys.

You will have a slight advantage over normal marines, unless they add weapons. If they march up or pop from drop pods it's a big differance.

8 marines in rapid fire shoots 16 times hitting 11 of those times which wounds 8 and kills 4 of your guys. In rapid fire range the marines have the advantage.

11 tau fires and hit you 6 which wounds 5 and kills 2.5 of your guys

You fire 30 times hit 15 wound 10 and kill 5.

Minds you tau within rapid fire would be the same output and if boosted by etheral or fire blade can do more.

After thinking about it. I say as it stands 10 points for what you have now. 12 points if you go with true heavy bolter stats.

Pg. 63 4th edition guard Chem-Inhaler: stubborn and if they fail leadership via shooting they are auto pined. Not exact wording, but quick explanation without quoting.

Sharpshooters: re roll ones

Close Order Drill: +1 leadership and +1 I if all models are in base contact.

I think the other two would fit as well. Re rolling ones is not game breaking and close order have it's negatives as well as positives.

The other disciplines in my opinion via your discription and what I seen on your clip wouldn't fit.

I would go 12 points with original stubber with chem inhailer and sharp shooters. Close Order Drill I would raise to 13 points if added.

The point cost would balance them out compared to other models out there.


The Man They Call Jayne

"I say as it stands 10 points for what you have now. 12 points if you go with true heavy bolter stats."

+2 points for +12" range, +2 Strength and -2 AP? Seriously? And they can take 10 of them? Are we just going for the most broken unit it is possible to make?

The stubber as listed here is fine as it is. It works nicely as a light machine gun tan is man portable, but it need to be stabilised to fire. It all works.
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Chicop76

Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on May 18, 2013, 01:15:29 AM
"I say as it stands 10 points for what you have now. 12 points if you go with true heavy bolter stats."

+2 points for +12" range, +2 Strength and -2 AP? Seriously? And they can take 10 of them? Are we just going for the most broken unit it is possible to make?

The stubber as listed here is fine as it is. It works nicely as a light machine gun tan is man portable, but it need to be stabilised to fire. It all works.

A regular stubber is strength 4 ap 6 at 36" range. Not saying use a heavy bolter stats.

12 points for +1 str, -1 ap, + 12".
At 12 points its equal to tau. Also unlike Tau if this unit moves they sna fire.


Narric

Quote from: Chicop76 on May 18, 2013, 02:00:34 AM
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on May 18, 2013, 01:15:29 AM
"I say as it stands 10 points for what you have now. 12 points if you go with true heavy bolter stats."

+2 points for +12" range, +2 Strength and -2 AP? Seriously? And they can take 10 of them? Are we just going for the most broken unit it is possible to make?

The stubber as listed here is fine as it is. It works nicely as a light machine gun tan is man portable, but it need to be stabilised to fire. It all works.

A regular stubber is strength 4 ap 6 at 36" range. Not saying use a heavy bolter stats.

12 points for +1 str, -1 ap, + 12".
At 12 points its equal to tau. Also unlike Tau if this unit moves they sna fire.
Wrong!!

None of the "Stub" weapons listed in the Rulebook have any AP (They're all AP-). There is also no "Rifle" stub gun, only the two Shotgun variaties (Guard & Astartes) and the Pistol.

I personally don't think a renamed Heavy Bolter is good as a Standard Weapon. Not even Marine Devastators and Chaos Havocs have that, and pay at least their base cost again to take them.

This is sort of why I suggested the OLD Hot-shot Lasgun stats. Essentially just a Lasgun with AP5. It could even remain Heavy 3 with that sort of statline.

Vyper

How about making the weapon something like this:

Weapon Range Str. Ap Type
Stubber    24"     3     6  Salvo 1/3

And then allow the purchasing of special ammo types?
Eg:

The squad may purchase one of the following special ammunition types:
Riot Mod: Any unit that suffers an unsaved wound from a stubber is at -1 I and A (To a minimum of 1) until the end of the next player turn. +5pts per model (a section of the IG dedicated to assisting the Adeptus Arbites put down particularly volatile civil unrest.)
Ap Rounds: The squad counts its stubbers as Ap5. +3 Pts per model.
Hollow Points: The squad's stubbers have the Shred USR, however their Ap is now - . +4 Pts per model.

Just my thoughts.

Arguleon-veq

#10
I think the key to making any new unit is to try and make it unique without complicating things with too many special rules.

When looking at points values the closest thing we have is a chaos cultist with a heavy stubber, this sets you back 9 points but then you have carapace which is usually costed at around 3 for 12 points, then you need to pay a premium for the whole unit getting to take them.

So i think you have costed them pretty well and the gun stats are fine to me, a normal man shouldnt be able to move and shoot with those things so I think the weapon stats are fine too.

With the bit of background you have given I think you should keep the special rule nice and simple and that would be something like;

Civil Supression: Any unit taking one or more unsaved wounds from a Wolf Brigade unit must take a pinning test.

Thats all you need, it means you wont have to up the points cost any more because of the special rules, it keeps it simple but still effective and fluffy and should stop anybody complaining about them being over-powered. The unit itself is unique enough without special rules as there are no other human units out there were every basic guy can have a heavy weapon.

I would even be tempted to make the stubbers S4.
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Lord Sotek

A note for you all, heavy stubbers are literally modern general-purpose/heavy machineguns ported into 40k. The Heavy Stubber models and art given are almost direct reproductions of the browning M2HB .50 cal machinegun, and the MG-42, which is what the Wolf Brigadiers use, is another direct inspiration.

Heavy Stubbers are S4, AP 6, R36", heavy 3. So either use that, or account for the Briadiers' 'walking fire' modifications by making them Salvo 2/3.
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Chicop76

 :facepalm001: I
Quote from: Narric on May 18, 2013, 08:46:36 AM
Quote from: Chicop76 on May 18, 2013, 02:00:34 AM
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on May 18, 2013, 01:15:29 AM
"I say as it stands 10 points for what you have now. 12 points if you go with true heavy bolter stats."

+2 points for +12" range, +2 Strength and -2 AP? Seriously? And they can take 10 of them? Are we just going for the most broken unit it is possible to make?

The stubber as listed here is fine as it is. It works nicely as a light machine gun tan is man portable, but it need to be stabilised to fire. It all works.

A regular stubber is strength 4 ap 6 at 36" range. Not saying use a heavy bolter stats.

12 points for +1 str, -1 ap, + 12".
At 12 points its equal to tau. Also unlike Tau if this unit moves they sna fire.
Wrong!!

None of the "Stub" weapons listed in the Rulebook have any AP (They're all AP-). There is also no "Rifle" stub gun, only the two Shotgun variaties (Guard & Astartes) and the Pistol.

I personally don't think a renamed Heavy Bolter is good as a Standard Weapon. Not even Marine Devastators and Chaos Havocs have that, and pay at least their base cost again to take them.

This is sort of why I suggested the OLD Hot-shot Lasgun stats. Essentially just a Lasgun with AP5. It could even remain Heavy 3 with that sort of statline.
Quote from: Lord Sotek on May 19, 2013, 03:25:30 AM
A note for you all, heavy stubbers are literally modern general-purpose/heavy machineguns ported into 40k. The Heavy Stubber models and art given are almost direct reproductions of the browning M2HB .50 cal machinegun, and the MG-42, which is what the Wolf Brigadiers use, is another direct inspiration.

Heavy Stubbers are S4, AP 6, R36", heavy 3. So either use that, or account for the Briadiers' 'walking fire' modifications by making them Salvo 2/3.

I thought so and wasn't wrong lol. I used to use them.

I still say 12 points and leave it heavy. If you make it salvo than you should up the points. 12 points for what you are suggesting is not op, unless you playing against a toughness 3 army with a +6 save. If they move it severly hurts the unit, so in victory point games they will have problems.

I agree 30 shots/ 15 strength 4 hits is a lot of shots. Although Kroot with the help of an ethereal can shoot 3 times more at half the cost within rapid fire range.


Wargamer

Quote from: Narric on May 18, 2013, 08:46:36 AM
~~snipped incorrect statements~~
For the record, a "normal" stub gun, or "stubber" is range 12" Str 3 AP - Type: Pistol. I believe they turned up in the Eye of Terror Codex way back when...

Shotguns are not stub guns. They are shotguns. A stub gun, based on visual appearance and descriptors used for five Editions, appears to be a light, short-ranged semi-automatic weapon designed to fire cartridged, or "cased" blunt-nosed bullets. The auto-pistol, by contrast, has traditionally been described as a full-auto weapon - almost a submachine gun - that fires caseless rounds.

If you want an apocryphal definition, a stub gun is any pistol or pistol-sized weapon that falls outside of standard categorization. However, it is worth noting that the RPG "Inquisitor" defines the revolver as a distinct weapon from the stub gun. Dark Heresy uses the terms "automatic stub gun" and "stub revolver", suggesting that "stub" is used to refer to the type of ammunition - likely the rounded type of bullet used in most civilian armaments.

To say that there is no "stub rifle" is a valid observation. However, Dark Heresy once again provides the Hunting Rifle - a solid projectile weapon with the same damage amount and type of the stub gun / stub revolver (and the autogun, for that matter). Combined with the fact that stub technology is widely available even on worlds incapable of producing Las-weaponry, it is not unreasonable to assume someone might produce a stub weapon besides the pistol/revolver and heavy stubber that 40K has seen thus far.

Such a weapon would likely be best represented by the lasgun statline, but it's quite clear these guys are packing LMGs - a weapon type 40K largely chooses to ignore for some reason - and with that in mind the proposed rules seem quite appropriate.
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