Two Tau questions

[knightperson]

1. Can a Skyray with Point Defence Targeting Relay fire its markerlights in overwatch? Assuming it can (which I believe should be the case), could it then still use any hits as normal, like to fire a seeker at BS5 with Ignores Cover? I believe it could use the markerlight hits, but not to fire a seeker as that is a weapon of greater than strength 5. Longstrike, however, could use that markerlight hit to fire a seeker, although I'm not convinced that would be the best choice. Here's the problem with my argument that the markerlight can be fired. Mathematically, a markerlight does not have a strength less than 5. It has no strength value at all. That's not the same as a strength of zero; it is an undefined strength value. Had the description been written as "with weapons that do not have a strength above 5" then it would be clear, but that's not how its written. Do you think anyone will actually make the mathematical argument in a tournament?

2. Can Shadowsun fire her second fusion blaster shot at a different unit when firing in overwatch? I was all set to argue that she could because her ability to fire a second weapon is granted by her battlesuit and the advanced wargear in it, not by a standard multi-tracker. However, while writing this I found on pg 59 the description of the XV22 Battlesuit, and it does in fact have a multi-tracker. So nevermind on this one, but I'm still interested in discussion of the first one.

[Chicop76]

Wow.

#1. Marker lights do not have a strength value. I would have to say no though. For the simple reason how using seeker missile is differant in 6th. The missile is still concidered a part of the weapon system and in the case of a flyer counts as part of it's shooting total. In the lst two codex it would had been yes. The issue comes from the fact the seeker bearer have to technically fire the missile, which is strength 8.

#1. Yes for the Marker Light, however I have the same issue with the seeker missile. The issue being if during over watch is the missile bs 1 or bs 5, same issue when a pathfinder use a marker light to shoot at a flyer and activate a seeker missile.

I would lean toward a yes at a bs 5 missile, but wouldn't be surprised this brings up arguments.

#2.

A. Since it's not the shooting phase she can only fire one system anyways. Also if I remember righ she can only shoot at another target during the shooting phase.

Anyway even if it's ruled yes you can only fire at an assaulting unit anyway. That being the case the only way to shoot at another charging unit is if you are getting multiassaulted.

Even still you have to look at the assault table.

Declare
Overwatch
Roll range

Repat with next unit.

In a way you can only overwatch at the unit charging you.

[Carrelio]

Chicop is definitely right about most of what he said, and may be right about the rest too (some of the answers are up in the air because of RAI vs RAW arguments... mostly the seeker missile's BS), but I'm a little iffy on a couple things.

Markerlights may be used in over watch.

They can be used to fire weapons over strength 8 (it's not really the vehicle firing it, but the effect of the markerlight).

It is arguable whether the seeker stays bs5 or snapfires.

Multitrackers only work in the shooting phase thus only 1 weapon may fire per model.

The target lock does not make this specification meaning you may fire at other targets (RAW even during overwatch since there's no mention of it... RAI debatable).

[Charistoph]

They can be used to fire weapons over strength 8 (it's not really the vehicle firing it, but the effect of the markerlight).

In the current codex, a Markerlight token allows a vehicle to fire a Seeker Missile "with the following rules".  So, yes, it is actually the vehicle firing it now.

It is arguable whether the seeker stays bs5 or snapfires.

In a Snap Fire situation, a Seeker launched with a Markerlight boost would not retain the BS 5 as this rule does not specifically override that rule like the one that increases BS.  It would still retain the other benefits, though.

[knightperson]

They can be used to fire weapons over strength 8 (it's not really the vehicle firing it, but the effect of the markerlight).

In the current codex, a Markerlight token allows a vehicle to fire a Seeker Missile "with the following rules".  So, yes, it is actually the vehicle firing it now.

You're probably right that an overwatching vehicle can't fire a seeker ... unless it's Longstrike. Longstrike could actually snapfire seekers, or with a markerlight counter from some other unit I think he could fire one normally, since the restrictions on high-strength weapons doesn't apply to him.

It is arguable whether the seeker stays bs5 or snapfires.

In a Snap Fire situation, a Seeker launched with a Markerlight boost would not retain the BS 5 as this rule does not specifically override that rule like the one that increases BS.  It would still retain the other benefits, though.

You're probably right, although it's still arguable. Does "resolved at BS5" override  "snapshot, therefore resolved at BS1"? Probably not, but it does need to be FAQ'd. I won't be terribly surprised if the FAQ rules otherwise.

[Charistoph]

It is arguable whether the seeker stays bs5 or snapfires.

In a Snap Fire situation, a Seeker launched with a Markerlight boost would not retain the BS 5 as this rule does not specifically override that rule like the one that increases BS.  It would still retain the other benefits, though.

You're probably right, although it's still arguable. Does "resolved at BS5" override  "snapshot, therefore resolved at BS1"? Probably not, but it does need to be FAQ'd. I won't be terribly surprised if the FAQ rules otherwise.

The BRB FAQ is what addresses it, I believe.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3170233a_40K_RULEBOOK_v1.4_APRIL13.pdf
Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model's Shooting attack (such as Space Marine
Signums or Sergeant Telion's Voice of Experience)? (p13)
A: No

[knightperson]

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3170233a_40K_RULEBOOK_v1.4_APRIL13.pdf
Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model's Shooting attack (such as Space Marine
Signums or Sergeant Telion's Voice of Experience)? (p13)
A: No

As I said you're probably right, and I wouldn't argue that I can use a BS 5 seeker in overwatch, but the rulebook citation is hardly definitive. The Tau Codex specifically states that the +1 BS ability of a markerlight CAN increase the BS of snap shots, either in overwatch or when shooting at a flyer. Since codex overrules rulebook when they conflict, that's a valid reductio ad absurdum argument.

[Rarity Declis]

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3170233a_40K_RULEBOOK_v1.4_APRIL13.pdf
Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model's Shooting attack (such as Space Marine
Signums or Sergeant Telion's Voice of Experience)? (p13)
A: No

As I said you're probably right, and I wouldn't argue that I can use a BS 5 seeker in overwatch, but the rulebook citation is hardly definitive. The Tau Codex specifically states that the +1 BS ability of a markerlight CAN increase the BS of snap shots, either in overwatch or when shooting at a flyer. Since codex overrules rulebook when they conflict, that's a valid reductio ad absurdum argument.

Well, in nearly every case, unless specifically says other wise, Codex trumps Rulebook, as you've said. The Tau Codex specifically mentions that it works with Snapshots regarding BS. Here are my thoughts.

You snap shot a Markerlight. 6+. You hit.

You have a Markerlight token. You can choose to increase BS. Or you choose to shoot a Markerlight. Either act instantly, and the same whether you're shooting a Snap Shot or not. You spend that point to shoot at +1 BS. Or you spend that point to shoot a Seeker at BS5. The fact you've spent a point is from the Markerlight which has hit, not the Snap-firing unit.

Otherwise, would you argue that if a unit runs, and then snap-shots their Markerlight, and the vehicle has moved far enough to only use Snap Shots, they can't use a Seeker Missile at BS5?

[Kur'os]

...Here are my thoughts.

You snap shot a Markerlight. 6+. You hit.

You have a Markerlight token. You can choose to increase BS. Or you choose to shoot a Markerlight. Either act instantly, and the same whether you're shooting a Snap Shot or not. You spend that point to shoot at +1 BS. Or you spend that point to shoot a Seeker at BS5. The fact you've spent a point is from the Markerlight which has hit, not the Snap-firing unit.

This is how I've always understood it.

-Kur'os

[Charistoph]

You have a Markerlight token. You can choose to increase BS. Or you choose to shoot a Seeker with enhnced abilities. Either act instantly, and the same whether you're shooting a Snap Shot or not. You spend that point to shoot at +1 BS. Or you spend that point to shoot a Seeker at BS5. The fact you've spent a point is from the Markerlight which has hit, not the Snap-firing unit.

Otherwise, would you argue that if a unit runs, and then snap-shots their Markerlight, and the vehicle has moved far enough to only use Snap Shots, they can't use a Seeker Missile at BS5?

I don't know quite which way you are going on this, and since I am currently out of bunny pancake photos:

The FAQ and previous precedence is quite clear.  The Markerlight use that improves a Seeker shot (note again, not shooting the Seeker any more), will not change BS of a Snap Shooting model, unless specifically stated otherwise, which the Seeker option does not.

[Rarity Declis]

You have a Markerlight token. You can choose to increase BS. Or you choose to shoot a Seeker with enhnced abilities. Either act instantly, and the same whether you're shooting a Snap Shot or not. You spend that point to shoot at +1 BS. Or you spend that point to shoot a Seeker at BS5. The fact you've spent a point is from the Markerlight which has hit, not the Snap-firing unit.

Otherwise, would you argue that if a unit runs, and then snap-shots their Markerlight, and the vehicle has moved far enough to only use Snap Shots, they can't use a Seeker Missile at BS5?

I don't know quite which way you are going on this, and since I am currently out of bunny pancake photos:

The FAQ and previous precedence is quite clear.  The Markerlight use that improves a Seeker shot (note again, not shooting the Seeker any more), will not change BS of a Snap Shooting model, unless specifically stated otherwise, which the Seeker option does not.

Yeah, I contacted GW about an order I have (Codex Space Marines and Lysander; finally, my Imperial Fist descended army will play as I want it too, hunting enemy champs and getting points for awesome duels!) and I asked as an off-hand about the Seeker Missiles, and he agreed that yup, it counts as BS1 if you use a Markerlight-sent Seeker Missile.

[Chicop76]

You have a Markerlight token. You can choose to increase BS. Or you choose to shoot a Seeker with enhnced abilities. Either act instantly, and the same whether you're shooting a Snap Shot or not. You spend that point to shoot at +1 BS. Or you spend that point to shoot a Seeker at BS5. The fact you've spent a point is from the Markerlight which has hit, not the Snap-firing unit.

Otherwise, would you argue that if a unit runs, and then snap-shots their Markerlight, and the vehicle has moved far enough to only use Snap Shots, they can't use a Seeker Missile at BS5?

I don't know quite which way you are going on this, and since I am currently out of bunny pancake photos:

The FAQ and previous precedence is quite clear.  The Markerlight use that improves a Seeker shot (note again, not shooting the Seeker any more), will not change BS of a Snap Shooting model, unless specifically stated otherwise, which the Seeker option does not.

Yeah, I contacted GW about an order I have (Codex Space Marines and Lysander; finally, my Imperial Fist descended army will play as I want it too, hunting enemy champs and getting points for awesome duels!) and I asked as an off-hand about the Seeker Missiles, and he agreed that yup, it counts as BS1 if you use a Markerlight-sent Seeker Missile.

Contacting GW isn't the best answer. I done so before and they been really wrong with their answers before. An example is with chimeras beeing open topped with th new guard. I forgot the other example, but I overlooked it in the FAQ which GW said something totally differant.

Basic rule of thumb is to ask them really hard questions that you know the answers too. If the don't know than it's obvious they are not a good source to get your answers.

[knightperson]

It's well established that the support help line is not authoritative. You are getting the interpretation of whatever flunky answers the phone at customer support, and there's no consistency. I've heard one or two rumors (or rumours) of an internal database where they store answers to rules questions so that the answers are consistent from one call to the next, but there's very little evidence to support that such a thing exists. My suspicion is that there is one guy who home-brewed something, and he's the only one who uses it. If you happen to get that same guy a second time you'll get the same answer, but other than that there's no guarantee.

In the US most people use the Adepticon INAT FAQ as the 40k rules bible, but different countries have different ideas of how authoritative it is.