Escalation: You got some Apocalypse in my 40k!

[BigToof]

Hi All,
GW finally went and did it.
So now with the new Escalation book, you can take Apocalypse level models in standard 40k.

I'm normally ok with some changes, especially if they spice things up, but my big problem is with D weapons.

For those of you who don't know how they currently work, it's something like this:

If you're hit, on a 2+ your model is removed without saves of ANY kind (no cover, invul, whatever), on a 2+ if you're a vehicle you explode.

There are some attempts to mitigate this, by giving your opponent a +1 to steal the initiative and giving you bonus points for taking out hull points on the "Lord of War," but it's kind of troubling to see the nonsense of some of the models.

The big offender is the Revenant, an Eldar model that fires 4 large D templates at two targets a turn.
It has 60" range and can move 36" a turn.  It can stomp in close combat and even instant-kill monsterous creatures.
The downside is that it is 900 points.

I'm not sure what to think if these become commonplace, as you're basically making very lopsided armies.

It DOES get rid of that 2++ re-rollable nonsense, but is this any better?

Let me know what you think.

Best,
-BT

[Narric]

How else do you expect GW to sell over-priced models that aren't actually featured in their relevant armies codex?

Sounds like total bullshit sales tactics. They just want to sell the big stuff, to justify making more big stuff. Where is the Adepta sororitas' real update? Where are their awesome new models and units and Monstrous Creatures/Dreadcanonessess?

Simple enough, if someone asks you for a game of 40k, and they expect you to let them play an Apoc unit (becuase Escalation says they can) just walk away. It worked to weed-out the power gaming Grey Knight players and it should work to kill off power gaming players from pretty much every other army.

[Mabbz]

Well, those D weapons are templates and presumably can't hit flyers. Maybe it's time I cobbled together a vendetta from all the junk I have lying around, the same way that I made my hydra when flyers showed up. Or I could just see how it reacts to all my anti tank. How tough are super heavies now?

All in all, I'm not too bothered. Very few people in my area used flyers when they were the new gimmick, and I doubt they'll use this stuff either. I certainly wont buy any of it, although that may be more due to my lack of money than anything.

[Arguleon-veq]

I like the idea until I looked at this thread, I really thought they would tone down D Weapons in this, maybe just make them Instant Death, or have them give a minus to your Invun/Cover. That would have been pretty balanced and would have made for some fun games, the Khorne Lord of Battle for example Im pretty sure comes off worse against my 3 Wraithknights and they come to less points than he does.

D Weps just break the game at smaller points value, I dont want a 300 pt model getting killed with a single shot so easily, fair enough if they roll a 6 to wound you and do it but to kill a 300pt model on a 2+ with no way of avoiding it, thats daft.

I'll play against them if they agree to house rule D Weps to just have instant death.

[salamut2202]

My group is really really liberal, we already had super heavies in in some lists. Forge world was allowed, testing custom characters was allowed, etc. Adding another detachment in 6th other than, allied detatchment, emplacement FOC, inquisitorial detatchment and now the Lord of War joins in.

[BigToof]

Personally, I'm ok with big tanks and walkers that don't have ranged D level weapons (i.e. Stompa, Baneblade), as they just seem to be a big fire magnet that you can deal with.  Plus, you know, they're not as wallet crippling as the others.

So... well... maybe it's ok?  I'm still a bit up in the air about it.

Best,
-BT

[Arguleon-veq]

I actually really like the rest of the rules for Escalation. I think Super Heavies are actually well balanced, without D Weapons. They just totally and utterly break the game. So I would be happy to play Escalation all the time [although I wont be using a super heavy myself] but never if they are using a D Weapon. Its annoying they made such a stupid rule because I can actually get a Revenant Titan really cheap! but theres no way I would want to use one the way it as at the minute!

[Irisado]

It's not a good idea at all in my opinion.

If you really want to play with such large pieces, then play Apocalypse.  All these titans and superheavies are far too large for a regular 40K game on a standard table, and most of them are not balanced either.  I certainly won't be going down this route.

I play Epic if I want to use titans and superheavy tanks.  It's a much better game all round, but particularly for those larger war engines.

[CoffeeGrunt]

If it makes you feel better, Tau got the crap Tigershark, not the one that would've been handier solely for fighting other Lords of War. Hell, I'd prefer the Orca to the Ionshark. Easier to scratch build, and fun for some themed Dropship lists.

Our local is very fair, being a community of not more than 20 gamers at most, and everyone generally knows everyone. We don't see too many hard-edged lists designed to rob people's lunch money, which has made it very fun come the mini-tournaments as there's a wide array of different armies to play each time round.

We're having a sanctioned Escalation mini-tourney next month, so everyone's aware in advance that they'll be in it. I'm trying to push for an Orca in my list, as if I fill it with Melta Crisis Teams, it's probably my best option for stopping the D. Given that my other options are also Forge World models, I think I might be able to push for it.

But of course, our lists are often very balanced, so I'll probably need to take a balanced list despite this. Orca carries the cost of two well-equipped Hammerheads, risks two VPs from its Superheavy status, and brings little firepower into the equation.

[The Man They Call Jayne]

Wait, Tau dont get don't AX-1-0? Then what exactly is the point?

[CoffeeGrunt]

You can fielding the standard Tigershark, a Barracuda with more armour and Twin-Linking on the Ion Cannon for 4x the price...WHOOO!!!

Or just field 4 Ion Hammerheads if you have such a burning hatred of Marines. Just...the standard Shark is cool if you already have one, but is yet another underwhelming addition to our lineup.

[The Man They Call Jayne]

I have used an AX-1-0 and I think its awesome. Those railcannons are the bees knees, if I wanted flying ion I i would take a flight of barracudas. Why is it always tau who get ignored when gw brings out new stuff?

[Unusual Suspect]

Forgeworld also released a pdf that listed other eligible Escalation units, including the AX-10 and the Warhound Scout Titan (Space Marines were also kinda hosed in Escalation, getting only the Thunderhawk).  Yes, it is Forgeworld, so not everyone accepts it.  I personally feel that once you go Escalation (especially if your army actually gets something worth the points, like that Eldar titan...), it would be pretty damn rude to deny a variant on an existing Escalation model.

I must say I'm glad I've been so slow to work on my Titan project... With Escalation in mind, I'm trying to build it to be passable as a Warhound or a Phantom (or, if I ever start gaming with my group again, using unique rules).  I was considering building a Void Shield Generator anyway, and I don't think it'd be too tough to make it mountable on the titan-to-be... and a sufficiently advanced/experimental Disruption Pod could suffice to represent the Phantom.  Either way, it'll probably be "Heavy Ion Cannons" that represent those juicy, juicy D weapons...

[CoffeeGrunt]

I have used an AX-1-0 and I think its awesome. Those railcannons are the bees knees, if I wanted flying ion I i would take a flight of barracudas. Why is it always tau who get ignored when gw brings out new stuff?

I'd be inclined to agree with you if it weren't for the fact we currently have the best Codex out there. 

Forgeworld also released a pdf that listed other eligible Escalation units, including the AX-10 and the Warhound Scout Titan (Space Marines were also kinda hosed in Escalation, getting only the Thunderhawk).  Yes, it is Forgeworld, so not everyone accepts it.  I personally feel that once you go Escalation (especially if your army actually gets something worth the points, like that Eldar titan...), it would be pretty damn rude to deny a variant on an existing Escalation model.

I've been arguing this point vehemently, as I want to run an Orca at a friendly Escalation tournament happening here soon. Just for a cool Dropship list, not for competition's sake.

The Tigershark is a Forge World model, and the rules are a copy-paste from the Forge World Taros book. Forge World have released a PDF detailing units allowed in Escalation, and Forge World is GW. Simply put - if they weren't GW, they'd have their asses sued for copyright infringement. The Taros book has GW's logo on it, and their IP on every page.

I can't see how one would accept a Revenant Titan as toes fair and legit, but not an Orca. Seriously, it's a joke list more than anything, mainly because I wanna run it full of Crisis Suits with Farsight. 

[The Man They Call Jayne]

We got the codex yeah, but so does everyone eventually

Still. I may consider running a bit of this at some point if I can find the forgeworld stuff for the AX-1-0. Given that my mates Baneblade currently has fallen to a Blackout Firewarrior and a single shot from a fusion blaster over 3 different apoc games, i am sure he will love to see an SD Railcannon turn up