new guard

[The Man They Call Jayne]

Why would you take regular Ogryns when for a mere 5 points they can get a 3+ armour save as Bullgryns?

[Narric]

Why would you take regular Ogryns when for a mere 5 points they can get a 3+ armour save as Bullgryns?

I for one never liked the look and stats of the Ogryns anyway, so any changes to them don't affect me. I'd much rather have Storm Troopers (Scions now?) to be able to take down enemy MEq. 4+ Armour isn't exactly tissue paper, as most standard weaponry doesn't go below AP5. Anything AP4 or better is either going to be not that strong or have few shots (Heavy Bolter and Plasma Gun/Meltagun as examples respectively). Any big guns with AP3 or better probably should be targeting you vehicles

Without knowing the full difference between Ogryns and Bullgryns, I mostly find it surprising that 3+ armour as an upgrade from 4+ for only 5pts is increadibly cheap. Maybe a little too cheap.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Why would you take Stealth Suits when Crisis Suits and Riptides are so much better? Why would you take Mutilators when Obliterators are so much better? Why would you take Swooping Hawks when Warp Spiders are so much better? Why would you take Night Spinners when Fire Prisms are so much better? Why would you take Warp Talons when Bikers are so much better? Why would you take Assault Marines when Bikers are so much better? Why would you take a Space Marine Captain when Chapter Masters are so much better? Why would you take Farsight when a Shas'O is so much better? Why would you take Shrikes when Raveners are so much better?

And so on, ad nauseum. Basically, most people just won't take them.

I for one never liked the look and stats of the Ogryns anyway, so any changes to them don't affect me. I'd much rather have Storm Troopers (Scions now?) to be able to take down enemy MEq. 4+ Armour isn't exactly tissue paper, as most standard weaponry doesn't go below AP5. Anything AP4 or better is either going to be not that strong or single shots (Heavy Bolter and Meltagun as examples respectively)

4+ Save only gives you a 50/50 chance of not dying. Bolters in Rapid Fire range will hit on 3s, Wound on 3s, so 6 Marines with 12 shots will get about 8 hits, 6 Wounds, and 3 dead Scions. Given how small the squads are, that's pretty nasty losses there.

[KCKitsune]

Hotshot Lasguns are now S4 Ap3.

Gotta ask a big Whiskey Tango Foxtrot about this fecal matter!  Why would you take a bolter when a hotshot lasgun does it better?  6 inches worth of range?  Really?

[Cammerz]

Without knowing the full difference between Ogryns and Bullgryns, I mostly find it surprising that 3+ armour as an upgrade from 4+ for only 5pts is increadibly cheap. Maybe a little too cheap.

Effectively they're two different units, the Ogryns are the ranged unit with Ripper Guns and the Bullgryns are the close combat unit with their own version of the frag grenade launcher and a big shield.

Ogryns have a 5+ save and Bullgryns have a 4+ save however if a Bullgryn with a slab shield (the standard issue shield) is in base contact with another slab shield user in the same squad then he gets +1 to his armour save and anyone behind them gets +1 to their cover save. It isn't an upgrade which boosts their armour, they're different units completely and the Bullgryn is slightly more expensive.

The Bullgryn also has an option to swap his 'Grenadier Gauntlet and Slab Shield' for a 'Power Maul and Brute Shield' which makes his close combat attacks Str7 AP4 and his save becomes 4+/5++, this of course makes him even more expensive.

Hotshot Lasguns are now S4 Ap3.

Gotta ask a big Whiskey Tango Foxtrot about this fecal matter!  Why would you take a bolter when a hotshot lasgun does it better?  6 inches worth of range?  Really?

They aren't, the hot-shot lasguns haven't changed. The only thing that's Str4 AP3 is the new hot-shot volley gun which is a special weapon that can only be used by Tempestus units. It's also Salvo 2/4 if anyone's interested.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Aww, that sucks.

[silverfuge]

Loved the punisher cannon 20 str 5 shots bang pask on it and it gains rending. Great against hoardes lol

[Chris]

The Pask Star unit looks set to be the new broken set up..

Tank Commander, Pask, all Punisher Russes.

Preferred Enemy, fire on my target and 60 shots a turn... that would be enough to turn any unit into mash....

[CoffeeGrunt]

Can only really threaten 1-2 units a turn, and you're really relying on Rends to kill anything with a decent Armour Save.

[Chris]

Sheer weight of fire is gunna hurt... I watched this go toe to toe with a death guard army. Nurgle was losing a whole squad of plague marines even when they were in cover each turn...

60 shots, rerolling missed hits (Pask's Preferred Enemy), I'm not gunna do the maths, but that's a lot of hits. Then 'fire on my target' from the tank commander ignoring cover saves.... Thats a lot of wounds... Can put the hurt down range!

[Cammerz]

Sheer weight of fire is gunna hurt... I watched this go toe to toe with a death guard army. Nurgle was losing a whole squad of plague marines even when they were in cover each turn...

60 shots, rerolling missed hits (Pask's Preferred Enemy), I'm not gunna do the maths, but that's a lot of hits. Then 'fire on my target' from the tank commander ignoring cover saves.... Thats a lot of wounds... Can put the hurt down range!

I should probably point out that Tank Commanders have their own orders; 'Full Throttle', 'Gunners, Kill on Sight' and 'Strike and Shroud', they can't use normal orders because they have the 'Tank Orders' special rule but not the 'Voice of Command' special rule. Therefore Pask cannot use 'Fire on my Target'. And even he did have 'Voice of Command' the regular orders can only be directed at "a single friendly non-vehicle unit".

[CoffeeGrunt]

60 shots, rerolling missed hits (Pask's Preferred Enemy)

Preferred Enemy only lets you re-roll 1s. For Guard hitting on 4s, that's only a 1/6 improvement in accuracy. Good, but not great. Maybe a couple of extra hits on average.

Against Nurgle Marines, discounting Pask, they should have got 20 hits off the first volley, re-rolling netting them another...5 hits, to be generous. 25 hits, wounding on 4s, re-rolling 1s nets them 12 Wounds, with another 2 on the Re-roll.

14 Wounds past a 3+ Armour Save nets you 5 Unsaved Wounds. 3 if they have Feel No Pain as true Plague Marines should.

Of course, Pask adds a lot into the bargain when he starts firing. 13 hits, re-rolling another 2. 8 Wounds, re-rolling another 1. 9 Wounds, 2 Rends, 7 Normal. 4 unsaved, 3 past FNP.

Dice are fickle, though, and I've been generous with the output. It could be worse, and this setup is damned expensive for 6 dead Plaguies. The Executioner would see it done much better. The advantage of the Punisher now is that in Pask's hands, it's a jack-of-all-trades thing.

[Tactical Genius]

So im now writing my first tourny list. Had a play test on Tuesday and wyverns Are great. They will slaughter light infantry and threaten TEQ. Tank orders work well although apparently tanks are only L9. Scions work well and the new taurox prime is good. Also new chimera rules play well.

[The Man They Call Jayne]

Threaten TEQ? And the rest. You caused 57 wounds on my unit of 10 Firewarriors and I rolled 6 1s there. If anything that's on the low side. It is a rediculous unit.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Overhead Cover is God when Wyverns are rolling around.