Coming Soon? 40k 7th Edition

[Pilum]

I'm sure there's a psychological study to be done here. The intersection of casual, "role-play"-ish thinking when handed over to an environment of number-crunching willy-wavers.

That's not aimed at anyone here, but looking at various forums I'm finding it mildly interesting there's almost a straight split between those who think fluff and those who turn instantly to spamming. An analysis of the background to how these came into the hobby could be intriguing. I mean, I came in via FRP so I'm perhaps biased to story, and was influenced by the battle reports of yore that seemed to have a similar ethos. I'm sure there are an equally large number who don't really care and will just soldier on with the current army though. Not like I've really got the cash or the space to do much more than tinker with the old space elves!

Is it a ploy to promote buying more stuff? Doubtless. I've not really thought about it but a few minutes thinking gives a few things, but (and here's the thing) they'd ultimately all be "counts-as", if I could find decent models for the concept. I'd also be hesitant to have it as my "permanent" army list as so many would be situational ("yeah, so that last shell blew open the craftworld zoo."). I would like to think that - rather than losing their minds - the studio has a combined 'design goal' of this plus trying to encourage players to think outside the "1500 pts, Cleanse, go" straitjacket. I quite like Jervis' idea of scenario packs, but equally aware that they'd be analysed, stripped bare and used horribly out of context if good.

In short? I'm not entirely sure the modern 40k audience has either sufficient imagination or sufficient restraint to really make this work. 'Battlefield' instant deathmatch and Warsong Gulch "never mind the flag, check my DPS" e-peen seem the limit (and I say that as someone with fond memories in both) Some of the old "classic" books and modules would probably get utterly slammed in today's environment. The most common competitor mentioned for the game? One where an essential maxim isn't "have fun with your mates", it's "play to crush". The current F/SF gaming paradigm in a nutshell. Even X-Wing is plagued with internet squadron lists and points analysis matrices. It's Star Wars, for god's sake!

Or maybe I'm just not getting any younger and becoming a crotchety old git. That's pretty likely too

[Irisado]

Power gamers exploit every edition of the rules, so there's nothing new in that respect.  What is different is that the rulebook will make it easier for them to field unbalanced and overpowered lists.  This is a shift back towards second edition, where the percentages system could be exploited more easily than the more rigid FOC system (note that the FOC system is far from perfect though).

The whole thing about competitive players doesn't stand up to scrutiny.  I only play against a friend or two for fun, but I still aim to win, so in that sense both me and my friends are competitive.  The term competitive has been hijacked by a small minority, mainly bloggers, as a style of game play which involves fielding the most powerful/overpowered, and usually boring spam lists possible for each army in order to win.  That's actually just one facet of competitive.  It cannot be used as a universal catch all term as they seem to think that it can.  There is no blanket definition of 'competitive' in 40K.

I'm now pretty certain that I've played my last game of 40K for a while now.  I don't like what I've seen regarding some of the rule changes, and the new book is likely to be too expensive an investment after only two years with the current one.  I'll not moan and complain about it though.  I've got plenty of other things that I can do instead of playing 40K .

[CoffeeGrunt]

Surrendering before the battle's even started, eh? I have a Commissar who 'd like a word...

We're very optimistic here, as the rumours are being parsed from the wish listing, a clearer picture is starting to manifest. I personally think that 7th is going to be pretty good, but we'll know when the book hits.

Not to mention said book is hitting the UK at £50, so my FLGS will have it for £45. I'm really liking GW's improved community interaction here, and the three book setup is very handy for transport.

[Pilum]

Irisado, when I say casual, i agree with you. I don't mean that I don't care about the result. When my models hit the table - any game- I'm going for the win. But there are ways and means. I've got to live with myself afterwards after all! I agree that the online dominance of the "win at all costs" mentality is probably a minority (and possibly very much linked to the individualities of the US gaming scene) but it's a very noticeable one that seems to drown many other views out.

To be honest I doubt I'll upgrade immediately but that's down to your other - and extremely good - point about money. Stupid cars and their stupid mechanical gubbins... So far, 40k is still giving me good games. If it doesn't, then *shrug*, I've walked away before...

[BigToof]

I must admit, I'm in the cautiously optimistic group.

Yes, the book is likely going to make big changes and alienate some people, which is always a risk.

But, there actually useful changes that have some instances of game balance.

The Psychic Phase implementation is between Movement and Shooting and it makes sense, with armies with a LOT of Psykers enjoying chances at getting buffs but at a chance to perils and really mess themselves over.  The Perils table is said to be something akin to the Fantasy Perils table, which includes wonderful things like "Your character and unit are sucked into the void.  Remove from Table."  So, it's more of a risk vs reward kind of scenario that I can see being more interesting and tactical.

And the rules say specifically that you have to agree to play unbound.  If you don't then no, you don't HAVE to play it.

I can see a lot of the rules become underutilized after the first few months, as people find out what their groups want to play.

In the long run, I see Bound (normal FOC) armies with mostly reasonable lists being played.  The meta will change and so will the net-lists, but I don't think Unbound will be around except for as an "apocalypse lite" version.

Just my thoughts.

Best,
-BT

[Scoutfox]

I agree with Bigtoof, I really don't see unbound as a problem at all. I don't play with any WAAC players now so I'm sure that wont change with the alternate FOC. I think it does open the door for some cool lists that won't take an entire day to play. Apoc was always a pain cause I could never devote the proper amount of time for a game. Now I can run tons of fast attack options along with my trukks and battlewagon. It won't be overpowered just cool.

I'm also waiting to see how the whole summoning thing works. Would be cool for a psyker in my Traitor Guard army to open a portal to the warp, or be torn apart as he morphs into a daemon.

[The Man They Call Jayne]

£50?! Seriously? Frell that noise. They had better do a "Rules Only" Edition. I wont even be touching that until next year regardless.

[Narric]

Spoke to a GW Store dude today. He is not in favour of Unbound, as he knows and has seen beardy bastards in action (Its my old GS, and they did have Power Gamers when I was there.)

Chances are they will release a rules only copy, as the new edition is split into three boks, and that is the reason behind the £5 price increase.o

Something I learned from Sales dude is Flying MC got a bff in the form of only taking a grounding test once per turn, and only if the shoot/attack wounded. This makes them much more survivble then what they currently are.

I also spoke to another gamer (on the other side of town)) about what he was expecting from this update, which was basically a system to swap one slot or slots for additional slots somewhere else in the FOC.* A system which iirc wasused for factions like Chaos MArines Iron Warriors.

The generally off forum note I picked up from these guys is that this new edition will bring out the Beardy Bastards, but at the same time those that just want to play a fluffy list, such as Rough Rider guards, Extra Hammerhead Tau, or Possessed cult Chaos will have more freedom.

£50?! Seriously? Frell that noise. They had better do a "Rules Only" Edition. I wont even be touching that until next year regardless.

only ~£40 on Total Wargamer dude when it comes out.

*btw, he may join the forum in the next couple days. He had heard of us, and I hope I gave the best impression of our community

[Irisado]

Irisado, when I say casual, i agree with you. I don't mean that I don't care about the result. When my models hit the table - any game- I'm going for the win. But there are ways and means. I've got to live with myself afterwards after all! I agree that the online dominance of the "win at all costs" mentality is probably a minority (and possibly very much linked to the individualities of the US gaming scene) but it's a very noticeable one that seems to drown many other views out.

I agree with everything that you've just said here.  I remember back in 2010 I had to fight against a wave of those sorts of players from blog land trying to flame and troll everyone on forums who didn't subscribe to their philosophy of playing the game.  Thankfully, those days are gone, although the split between forums, blogs, and Facebook has had a very detrimental impact on forum activity just about everywhere.

On the issue of the psychic phase that has been raised by others, I just cannot see how it's going to be positive for the game.  Some races don't have very good psychic capability, so run the risk of being crushed by opposing psykers.  In addition, one of the reasons why the old psychic phase from second edition was scrapped was because it was far too powerful, and gave psychic powers too much say over the outcome of the game.  It was one of the reasons why Eldar were so destructive in second edition.  I fear that the wheel is being reinvented here for no good reason.

[Pilum]

From what I've read, the mechanics that have been mentioned online don't sound too overpowering, and allow a chance at nullifying previously untouchable powers (ie the buffs like Guide et al). The potential issue with psychics is if they decide that 40k really needs the lunacy that is fantasy's Number 6 spells.

I will concede, though, that I could be missing something here as obviously my view is skewed by my local environment.

Edit: ok, let's work through with some of what I've heard. So each turn you generate d6+total mastery levels of power dice. To dispel you get... Either the number rolled on the dice or an equal total number (I suspect the former). On average half of those dice will fail and for ML 2+ powers the defender just needs enough dispels to drop them below the target number. If someone goes the Ulthwé route it could be a problem but that leads to diminishing returns. Each warlock adds 1 dice but needs 2 to reliably cast. "Psychic battery" warlocks could be an issue but if you're in an environment where someone is thinking of blowing the points on that, chances are they're already running JetSeer and you're already used to dealing with it!

[Narric]

fantasy's Number 6 spells.

What are you referring to there? I've only just got my rulebook back, so not fully back up to speed.....

[Pilum]

The ones you roll a 6 to get. The likes of Black Horror & 13th Spell. Basically all the top-of-the-lore-table "remove army from play" stuff, though to be fair there are enough abominations lower down in some lores iirc. I'll forego my usual frothing on this topic and just say it's another reason for me to avoid 8th.

[Narric]

IIRC mostly of those 6th spells are pretty difficult to cast by lowly wizards, and are pretty much for the 3rd and 4th tier Mages, especially considering their casting roll.

We may see a full overhaul to the way Psychic powers are even used, meaning 40k 6th powers could be uber powerful, but useless to those that can't cast them. That was my understanding of the Primaris Powers at least. So if you had a power that was not useful or can't be used, you can just use a basic power in its place.

[Pilum]

True but if they exist, they'll be used, only with the added problem that at least 3 armies have no native psychic support to exploit or defend them. Plus thematically I don't think massive psychic explosions and weirdness really thematically suits 40k barring perhaps some of Chaos - unless the 'new guard' put in their tv/film influences in the way the original designers did and we go full Dragonball.

[Wargamer]

On the Psychic Phase front, my biggest issue with Fantasy is, and always has been the utter domination of Magic.

To explain the problem: you don't need to counter range with range; you don't need to counter artillery with artillery; but if your opponent has Magic you pretty much have to bring Magic yourself.

I do not want Psychic Powers to go the same way, but I'm pretty sure they will.