Author Topic: Forum Project - Designing rules for the Stormbird/Warhawk IV  (Read 23329 times)

Offline Naser Al-Istikhara Cyrus

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Re: Forum Project - Designing rules for the Stormbird/Warhawk IV
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2012, 01:19:36 AM »
For something with 6 structure points, and all these bells and whistles, costing only 100 more than a baneblade makes it seem ridiculously cheap.

However, I must admit that this is the best looking Imperial flyer i have ever seen in my entire life! :D Almost makes me want to paint one myself lol.
You make it sound like it could be wearing a top-hat and monocle, but for the sole reason it'd have been painted by Gareth that it would still look terrifying........I have to say I agree. XD
[quote author=Greg Mun

Offline Alpha_Wolf

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Re: Forum Project - Designing rules for the Stormbird/Warhawk IV
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2012, 03:42:17 AM »
I think that one must consider this to be a related article to the thunderhawk. if the thunderhawk can carry land raiders (still seems strange, but whatever)  then this thing should be able to carry them as well. after all, this is described as a larger precursor to the thunderhawk. in terms of physical size, infantry are one scale, vehicles are another, and vehicles are another, right? I mean, you can't actually fit 10 fire warriors in a devilfish can you?

on the issue of structure points, I can certainly say that it makes no sense for a larger version of the thunderhawk to have fewer structure points than it does. that said, twice as many seems excessive. wouldn't 4 structure points then be a logical amount for balancing purposes? I don't actually have the experience with apoc. to say, but to me, this makes sense.

if I'm not mistaken, the hover mode these things are supposed to have is similar to that which real life harriers and ospreys have, right? in that sense, it's really only as a means to allow them to fire more accurately on target, and to put more shots in one place. in that sense, there is no reason at all that it should be fast, and if anything it should actually be somewhat slow. this only complicates the rules either way, so I'll put my vote on the normal skimmer hover mode.

one final, and slightly off topic, question. I know that space marines are supposed to use the thunderhawk as their all purpose air support, but what about IG, and other non marine imperials? Do they only use thunderhawks too, or is there something else available to them?
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Offline Narric

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Re: Forum Project - Designing rules for the Stormbird/Warhawk IV
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2012, 06:20:40 PM »
I think that one must consider this to be a related article to the thunderhawk. if the thunderhawk can carry land raiders (still seems strange, but whatever)  then this thing should be able to carry them as well. after all, this is described as a larger precursor to the thunderhawk. in terms of physical size, infantry are one scale, vehicles are another, and vehicles are another, right? I mean, you can't actually fit 10 fire warriors in a devilfish can you?

Difference between whether a Devilfish can carry 10 Fire Warriors and how a Thunderhawk can carry a Land Raider, is that there is an actual model showing a Thunderhawk (variant) carrying one.

None of the Transport vehicles, can technically carry the unit they're supposedly for, but we can put that down to the "Heroic" scale GW has set for Warhammer.

I can see the Stormbird carrying a Land Raider easily, but I wouldn't except it to carry 3. Remember, those Land Raiders also have a transport cap, so they could carry a unit aswell. Meaning a Stormbird carrying 3 LRs could also carry 45 Marines, or 30 Terminators. That is what I don't want to see.

If we're going to allow it to have aVehicle Transport cap, then that must be either/or with the Infantry/walker/MC transport cap. There should be no mix and match ebwteen the two, same as (from what I can tell) a Rhino or LR transporting Thunderhawk doesn't also have extra space to carry its normal cap of marines.

sorry if that was a bit ramblish. :(

Quote
on the issue of structure points, I can certainly say that it makes no sense for a larger version of the thunderhawk to have fewer structure points than it does. that said, twice as many seems excessive. wouldn't 4 structure points then be a logical amount for balancing purposes? I don't actually have the experience with apoc. to say, but to me, this makes sense.
I have no exp with Apoc either, so I'm going by what the majority says (so long as it makes sense to me)

Quote
if I'm not mistaken, the hover mode these things are supposed to have is similar to that which real life harriers and ospreys have, right? in that sense, it's really only as a means to allow them to fire more accurately on target, and to put more shots in one place. in that sense, there is no reason at all that it should be fast, and if anything it should actually be somewhat slow. this only complicates the rules either way, so I'll put my vote on the normal skimmer hover mode.
I've put it down as a Skimmer Tank for now, with Flyer with Hover Mode type for Apoc games. Hopefuly that works.

Quote
one final, and slightly off topic, question. I know that space marines are supposed to use the thunderhawk as their all purpose air support, but what about IG, and other non marine imperials? Do they only use thunderhawks too, or is there something else available to them?
My thoughts is that this would Imperial Navy, so IG would have access also. But in that vain, I don't believe it should special options depending on which army it is bought for. that can only lead to confusion.

Offline Alpha_Wolf

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Re: Forum Project - Designing rules for the Stormbird/Warhawk IV
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2012, 10:35:26 PM »
Quote
one final, and slightly off topic, question. I know that space marines are supposed to use the thunderhawk as their all purpose air support, but what about IG, and other non marine imperials? Do they only use thunderhawks too, or is there something else available to them?
My thoughts is that this would Imperial Navy, so IG would have access also. But in that vain, I don't believe it should special options depending on which army it is bought for. that can only lead to confusion.

I wasn't implying that, but just generally curious about IG air support vs. marine air support.

 I agree that a transport carrying transports carring marines is ridiculous. I meant that it should be able to carry empty land raiders. wouldn't it be universally dangerous to do that anyway? even if the unit is purchased as a dedicated transport, it would have to be fastened into the vehicle so that only the crew are in it anyway, and so each transport should be forced to deploy seperatly of its unit.
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Offline Naser Al-Istikhara Cyrus

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Re: Forum Project - Designing rules for the Stormbird/Warhawk IV
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2012, 11:48:18 PM »

 I agree that a transport carrying transports carring marines is ridiculous. I meant that it should be able to carry empty land raiders. wouldn't it be universally dangerous to do that anyway? even if the unit is purchased as a dedicated transport, it would have to be fastened into the vehicle so that only the crew are in it anyway, and so each transport should be forced to deploy seperatly of its unit.

IIRC, Blood Angels can Deepstrike land raiders with occupants inside. I know GW logic =/= actual logic, but on those grounds, you could make a claim that you could, in fact, carry occupied transports.

Also, slightly tangent, but doesn't this happen in Aliens? Two crew are flying the plane from the ship to ground level, all the other people are in an APC in the plane, ready to mobilise the second it lands.

Zambia
You make it sound like it could be wearing a top-hat and monocle, but for the sole reason it'd have been painted by Gareth that it would still look terrifying........I have to say I agree. XD
[quote author=Greg Mun

Offline Narric

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Re: Forum Project - Designing rules for the Stormbird/Warhawk IV
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2012, 08:15:53 AM »
Looking over the Blood Angels fluff for their Deep Striking Land Raiders, they achieve it by saying a Thunderhawk carries the LR into the battlefield and either land and releases, or releases it still in flight.

This bit of fluff actually caused a gamer at my LGS to state that he should get a free Thunderhawk with every Land Raider he fielded :P

In terms on Xeno similarities, I'd like it if you gave some examples for me to check over.

Offline The Man They Call Jayne

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Re: Forum Project - Designing rules for the Stormbird/Warhawk IV
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2012, 09:14:30 AM »
The Manta can carry 4 Devilfish, and I think they can be occupied.

The important point to remember is that you have to pay for it. So you are talking Stormbird at 600, 2(?) Landraiders at a further 500(ish) plus 2 units of PA Marines or Terminators at a further 400(ish)

And if the Stormbird gets shot down before you have dropped off your stuff, I think the Apod rules state you automatically lose the vehicles and occupants.
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Offline Narric

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Re: Forum Project - Designing rules for the Stormbird/Warhawk IV
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2012, 09:17:51 AM »
The Manta can carry 4 Devilfish, and I think they can be occupied.

The important point to remember is that you have to pay for it. So you are talking Stormbird at 600, 2(?) Landraiders at a further 500(ish) plus 2 units of PA Marines or Terminators at a further 400(ish)

And if the Stormbird gets shot down before you have dropped off your stuff, I think the Apod rules state you automatically lose the vehicles and occupants.
I guess thats fair?

How would we word the Transport Capacity then?

Offline The Man They Call Jayne

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Re: Forum Project - Designing rules for the Stormbird/Warhawk IV
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2012, 10:41:44 AM »
Well, we could look at it this way:

Stormbird - 600
Dreadnought/MC Mod - +55
Vehicle Mod - +100

Stormbird can carry up to 2 Landraiders or 3 Rhino Chassis Vehicles. The vehicle may carry units as specified in their unit entries in their respective Codecies.

If the StormBird is modded to carry a different unit type, it may ONLY carry that unit type.
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Offline Narric

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Re: Forum Project - Designing rules for the Stormbird/Warhawk IV
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2012, 12:05:38 PM »
Well, we could look at it this way:

Stormbird - 600
Dreadnought/MC Mod - +55
Vehicle Mod - +100

Stormbird can carry up to 2 Landraiders or 3 Rhino Chassis Vehicles. The vehicle may carry units as specified in their unit entries in their respective Codecies.

If the StormBird is modded to carry a different unit type, it may ONLY carry that unit type.
hmm, so something like this:

Transport Capacity
  • Sixty Models and/or Two Dreadnought/Monstrous Creatures
  • For +55pts, it may carry five Dreadnoughts/Monstrous Creatures, but loses the capacity to carry regular models
  • For +100pts it may carry up to two Land Raiders, or three Rhino Chasis or Chimera chasis vehicles. It loses to the ability to carry regular models and Dreadnoughts/monstrous Creatures, but Dedicated Transports may carry their units, whilst being carried by the Stormbird.

Sound good?

Offline The Man They Call Jayne

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Re: Forum Project - Designing rules for the Stormbird/Warhawk IV
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2012, 12:27:02 PM »
Not sure about the Chimera Chassis option. It's a Space Marine unit. The IG have the Sky Talon dont they.
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Offline Narric

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Re: Forum Project - Designing rules for the Stormbird/Warhawk IV
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2012, 04:45:28 PM »
Not sure about the Chimera Chassis option. It's a Space Marine unit. The IG have the Sky Talon dont they.
The Sky Talon seems solely an Ellysian speiclal vehicle, rather then a general IG vehicle transporter.

I was also trying to make it seem like this WASN'T another Space Marine exclusive unit. They have enough toys.

And before anyone starts, if I find some fan-made concept art of a vehicle for a Xenos race, that doesn't have rules. I'd more then happily try and create rules for it, as another forum project similar to this one.

Offline Alpha_Wolf

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Re: Forum Project - Designing rules for the Stormbird/Warhawk IV
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2012, 07:08:34 PM »
And before anyone starts, if I find some fan-made concept art of a vehicle for a Xenos race, that doesn't have rules. I'd more then happily try and create rules for it, as another forum project similar to this one.

lets include creatures in this because 'nids don't really have vehicles. though I agree that marines have enough cool toys, the guard have an entire navy of their own. and this vehicle especially was supposed to be a marine exclusive vehicle.
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Offline Narric

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Re: Forum Project - Designing rules for the Stormbird/Warhawk IV
« Reply #28 on: July 10, 2012, 09:05:59 PM »
OK chaps, a small bump to remind you all of this.

I'm going to be trying to get some off-site help. I'm both featuring it on my blog, and tomorrow I am taking a print out copy of the current rules with me to my LGS to get some new ideas in the mix.

Also, there may be some changes needed to be done, as these rulese were written for 5th Edition. Yes, we/I wrote them for compatibilty with 6th, but i think some of these changes were not entirely expected, so changes to our rules may need to be done.

Lets keep this going :D

Offline Wargamer

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Re: Forum Project - Designing rules for the Stormbird/Warhawk IV
« Reply #29 on: July 10, 2012, 10:27:25 PM »
Your post had some weird formatting errors (ie: table tabs outside of your post! :o). I edited it to see if that fixed the bug, which it did (for me at least). Just so you know. ;)

I'll have to get a copy of the 6th rules and learn them a bit better before commenting on rules and such.
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