2S Tau Empire Codex - 6th Edition Restart

[Charistoph]

Howabout this:

Photon Grenade:

Weapon	Range	Str	AP	Type
Photon Grenade	6"	-	-	Assault 1, Defensive Grenade, Disorienting

Disorienting: A unit hit with this grenade is Blinded and looses any Cover Save, no matter the source on a 4+, if a model has Acute Senses or Hatred, this is on a 2+.

Pulse Carbines: A model with a Pulse Carbine counts as carrying Photon & EMP grenades, and may "throw" them an additional 6" instead of its normal shooting attack.

[Narric]

Howabout this:

Photon Grenade:

Weapon	Range	Str	AP	Type
Photon Grenade	6"	-	-	Assault 1, Defensive Grenade, Disorienting

Disorienting: A unit hit with this grenade is Blinded and looses any Cover Save, no matter the source on a 4+, if a model has Acute Senses or Hatred, this is on a 2+.

Pulse Carbines: A model with a Pulse Carbine counts as carrying Photon & EMP grenades, and may "throw" them an additional 6" instead of its normal shooting attack.

*breathes deeply through clenched teeth*

Wow, you've missed something.

A beardy player would see this, and say that a Fire Warrior gets EMPs and Photon Grenades for free, which isn't good.

Disorienting is also a bit long winded and a bit redundant. We can already negate cover saves, thats part of what MLs do. OK, it takes our dependance on MLs down a little, but our key ML source is no longer offering the boost to BS, which is just as useful, if not more so.

Also, you've forgotten the "once per game" limit, which would mean this can't be fired around willy nilly. It makes the Tau player use tactics, which a good tau player should be anyway (and not underhanded ones, as a beardy TP would use).

Here is my alt suggestion

Photon Grenade:
The Photon Grenade is a Defensive Grenade. In addition to the rules as stated in the Warhammer 40k Rulebook, it may be used in the Tau player's shooting phase with the following profile, instead of firing the models normal weapon:

Weapon	Range	Str	AP	Type
Photon Grenade	6"	-	-	Assault 1, Blind

Pulse Carbines:
Type: Assault 2
If a model is equipped with either EMP or Photon Grenades in addition to a Pulse Carbine, they may fire one of each, per game, with the following profile (though it may not fire both in the same shooting phase, nor as an overwatch reaction):

Weapon	Range	Str	AP	Type
Photon Grenade	12"	-	-	Assault 1, Blind
EMP Grenade	12"	-	-	Assault 1, Haywire

[The Man They Call Jayne]

Would it be worth saying that if you are firing a grenade instead of the carbine, everyone in the squad has to fire the same grenade type in the same turn. Otherwise you could just fire one at a time Blinding every unit that came near you.

Or is that the aim here?

[Charistoph]

Howabout this:

Photon Grenade:

Weapon	Range	Str	AP	Type
Photon Grenade	6"	-	-	Assault 1, Defensive Grenade, Disorienting

Disorienting: A unit hit with this grenade is Blinded and looses any Cover Save, no matter the source on a 4+, if a model has Acute Senses or Hatred, this is on a 2+.

Pulse Carbines: A model with a Pulse Carbine counts as carrying Photon & EMP grenades, and may "throw" them an additional 6" instead of its normal shooting attack.

*breathes deeply through clenched teeth*

Wow, you've missed something.

A beardy player would see this, and say that a Fire Warrior gets EMPs and Photon Grenades for free, which isn't good.

Disorienting is also a bit long winded and a bit redundant. We can already negate cover saves, thats part of what MLs do. OK, it takes our dependance on MLs down a little, but our key ML source is no longer offering the boost to BS, which is just as useful, if not more so.

Also, you've forgotten the "once per game" limit, which would mean this can't be fired around willy nilly. It makes the Tau player use tactics, which a good tau player should be anyway (and not underhanded ones, as a beardy TP would use).

Here is my alt suggestion

Photon Grenade:
The Photon Grenade is a Defensive Grenade. In addition to the rules as stated in the Warhammer 40k Rulebook, it may be used in the Tau player's shooting phase with the following profile, instead of firing the models normal weapon:

Weapon	Range	Str	AP	Type
Photon Grenade	6"	-	-	Assault 1, Blind

Pulse Carbines:
Type: Assault 2
If a model is equipped with either EMP or Photon Grenades in addition to a Pulse Carbine, they may fire one of each, per game, with the following profile (though it may not fire both in the same shooting phase, nor as an overwatch reaction):

Weapon	Range	Str	AP	Type
Photon Grenade	12"	-	-	Assault 1, Blind
EMP Grenade	12"	-	-	Assault 1, Haywire

That is more balanced.  I will admit, I thought Blind had to Wound in order to be effective.  But why should it be just once per game?  Just because Marine Combi-bolters are?  At best, I could see a 1-2 turn stop-gap before firing another grenade.

Would it be worth saying that if you are firing a grenade instead of the carbine, everyone in the squad has to fire the same grenade type in the same turn. Otherwise you could just fire one at a time Blinding every unit that came near you.

Or is that the aim here?

Why should you?  Though, one should point out that in most cases, firing both grenades would be pointless in many situations.

[Narric]

Making it once per game means that our Pathfinders (and Carbine Fire Warriors) don't go from ML source to Tank-hunters.

Would it be worth saying that if you are firing a grenade instead of the carbine, everyone in the squad has to fire the same grenade type in the same turn. Otherwise you could just fire one at a time Blinding every unit that came near you.

Or is that the aim here?

I hadn't thought of that, as I figured it went without saying.

It occurs to me though that only the EMP would benefit from massed shooting.

Thiniking about it, I'm not entirely sure how I'd word that part of the ability.

Unless you go WYSIWYG, in which case, only models physically equipped with Carbines can use the ability. Which oddly reminds me of how Tau units were delt with in DoW.

[Charistoph]

Don't forget your basic Gun Drones.  This upgrade could make them seriously nasty,

Well, for a short time, anyway.

[Narric]

"seriously nasty" @BS 2? I know their Carbines are Twin-linked, but come on....

And they can't take Grenades anyway, so Gun Drones WON'T benefit from this.

Something else is that we have to pay extra just to be equipped with our Grenades, which ups our current FWs and PFs to a minimum of 14pts and 16pts respectively, before adjusting their cost to reflect the new carbine ability.

We'd be paying a similar price for a marine in not too long.

[Wargamer]

You realise, I trust, that giving Carbines the Haywire rule, even if it only has a 12" range, makes Firewarriors / Pathfinders one of the greatest tank-hunters in the game, right?

Consider:

12 Firewarriors with Carbines - 120pts.
Devilfish - about 60-70pts.

The unit can inflict an average of 5 Glancings + 1 Penetrating Hit in a single volley. The Devilfish gives them the speed required to get into a firing position turn 1. For 190pts you have a unit that will insta-gib a Land Raider without even trying, and any casualties that pile up can easily be compensated for by throwing some Markerlights into the mix.

Haywire is a hugely powerful rule. It should not be thrown around flippantly.

Nor do I like 1-shot Carbine abilities: it's a lot of book-keeping "Oh, only two of the models in the squad have used their 1-shots, and they're conveniently the two you killed last turn so I can carry on nuking your entire motor pool!"

Let a model with a Carbine increase the range of any grenades they use to 12". Less paperwork, less broken crap, but still a potentially nice power boost (even a single EMP grenade in the right place will ruin someone's day).

[The Man They Call Jayne]

""Oh, only two of the models in the squad have used their 1-shots, and they're conveniently the two you killed last turn so I can carry on nuking your entire motor pool!""

This is why I was suggesting that the whole squad had to fire grenades at the same time.

So at BS3 from Pathfinders that 4 hits which should amount to one dead tank. Of course you might get 6 hits, or only 2. But the point is you can only do it once.

[Wargamer]

Still one hell of an alpha strike ability... and for dirt cheap comparatively speaking. You could quite easily produce a Tau army with only a few dedicated tank-hunters and wipe the rest of the motor pool via improvised alpha-strikers.

[Lord Sotek]

Even as a one-use-only attack, the fact that you're effectively assured to overkill the vehicle you shoot with it unless the dice betray you incredibly horribly sounds like way too much.

Aside from being overpowered in its own right, it effectively turns a unit of Pathfinders into a high-mobility Priority 1 Target that an opposing player is either forced to expend their army's firepower neutralizing, or suffer their best vehicle getting nuked the second it gets too close to them. Even if you never fire off a shot with them, they're a

A 160-170 point unit has absolutely NO business exerting that degree of influence and control over a battlefield. Even if it were 300 points, I still don't think it would.

[Narric]

Wargamer & Sotek, please read my suggestion again.

I do not give Carbines the Haywire SR, only EMP Grenades, which are a 3pt per model upgrade anyway. So no, its won't be a 190pt unit, it would be a 226pt unit (12 Strong). At cheapest, your FW squad will be very undermanned so would be less effective.

And currently I'm assuming the Tau player has the sense to realise its the entire squad or not at all. I just can't figure out how to write that as part of the rule. (Thank you Jayne for being on my side on this, I hope)

I don't want rules to be thrown around willy nilly either, hence why I strongly recommend the once-per-game limitation.

On the subject of opponent priority targets. Anything thats trying to take out your Tau, isn't targetig something else, like your Railhead, or some other uber Tau unit.

[Wargamer]

The thing you are clearly oblivious to, Narric, is this allows the Tau to essentially ban vehicles from the tabletop. You will see a lot of Tau armies built as follows:

Pathfinders and/or Firewarriors with insta-gib tankhunter weapons.
1-2 Railheads and/or Broadside units.
1-2 Skyrays for Anti-air capability.
Maybe some Battlesuits with Fusion Blasters and Deep Strike.

There is just no way to counter that. You are going to have your entire motor pool nuked by turn 2. Moreover, the issue lies with the fact that the 'secondary' anti-tank elements - the Firewarriors / Pathfinders, are arguably better than your dedicated tank hunters. That should not be the case; the whole point of Railheads and Broadsides is to pulp any vehicle in line of sight. Under your concept, they'll just be there to draw fire from the Pathfinders.

[Scout Sergeant Mkoll]

You realise, I trust, that giving Carbines the Haywire rule, even if it only has a 12" range, makes Firewarriors / Pathfinders one of the greatest tank-hunters in the game, right?

Consider:

12 Firewarriors with Carbines - 120pts.
Devilfish - about 60-70pts.

The unit can inflict an average of 5 Glancings + 1 Penetrating Hit in a single volley. The Devilfish gives them the speed required to get into a firing position turn 1. For 190pts you have a unit that will insta-gib a Land Raider without even trying, and any casualties that pile up can easily be compensated for by throwing some Markerlights into the mix.

Haywire is a hugely powerful rule. It should not be thrown around flippantly.

Nor do I like 1-shot Carbine abilities: it's a lot of book-keeping "Oh, only two of the models in the squad have used their 1-shots, and they're conveniently the two you killed last turn so I can carry on nuking your entire motor pool!"

Let a model with a Carbine increase the range of any grenades they use to 12". Less paperwork, less broken crap, but still a potentially nice power boost (even a single EMP grenade in the right place will ruin someone's day).

Sorry to bubble burst, but if it's counting as grenades then only 1 model can use the ability per turn. Otherwise it's going to need to cost more than 2pts/model. Haywire for Wyches is base to base contact or a model at 8" range for that price, and entire unit having them at 12" range is absurd for the same cost. Hell, it takes 260pts for Dark Eldar to get just 4 Haywire shots at 18", though that is on jump infantry.

[Wargamer]

Narric's idea was for the entire unit to make a once-per-game shooting attack using their grenades, which could mean an entire unit firing 12 Haywire grenades.

My idea is to allow 'throwing' grenades up to 12", which is far more balanced because, as you say, it's one model per unit.