Author Topic: Point Defence Systems - new toys for vehicles!  (Read 8768 times)

Offline Wargamer

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Point Defence Systems - new toys for vehicles!
« on: July 24, 2012, 12:57:46 PM »
As if they weren't already vulnerable enough to being assaulted, 6th has seriously hurt vehicles all round. To counteract this, I propose a few new House Rules to try and tip the balance back in the favour of the big guns!

The following upgrades are available to any vehicle in the race's respective lists, with the exception of Walkers - they can already Overwatch (and fight back!) against being assaulted, so they don't need any further upgrades.

Unless otherwise noted, you cannot put these on a Flyer!

CHAOS SPACE MARINES:
All Pintle-mounted Storm Bolters may now be fired on Overwatch.
Any Chaos Space Marine tank may purchase Frag Launchers at +10pts, or +20pts for a Land Raider (including variants).

ELDAR:
Any Eldar vehicle may purchase Monofilament Projectors at +10pts.

IMPERIAL GUARD:
All Pintle-mounted Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers may now be fired on Overwatch.
Any Imperial Guard tank may purchase Frag Launchers at +10pts.

NECRONS:
Any Necron vehicle may be given an Electro-static Hull at +10pts, or +20pts for a Monolith or Necron Flyer.

ORKS:
Any Ork vehicle may purchase a Stikkbomb Launcha at +10pts. This uses the rules for the Frag Launcher.

SPACE MARINES (ALL TYPES):
All Pintle-mounted Storm Bolters may now be fired on Overwatch.
Any Space Marine tank may purchase Frag Launchers at +10pts, or +20pts for a Land Raider (including variants).

TAU:
Vehicle-mounted Drones may Overwatch on behalf of their parent vehicle.
Fletchette Dischargers have been modified in line with the rules given here. Their points cost is increased to +15pts.

THE ARMOURY:

Electro-static Hull:
Any model that rolls a 1 to hit against a vehicle with an Electro-static Hull suffers an immediate Str 5 Ap - hit.

Flechette Dischargers:
Range: N/A. Str: 4 AP: 5 Type: Assault X, Overwatch Only.
A unit charging a vehicle or squadron equipped with Flechette Dischargers suffers one hit per charging model.

Frag Launchers:
Range: N/A. Str: 3 AP: 6 Type: Assault X, Overwatch Only.
A unit charging a vehicle or squadron equipped with Frag Launchers suffers one hit per charging model.

Monofilament Projector:
Range: N/A. Str: 2 AP: - Type: Assault X, Rending, Overwatch Only.
A unit charging a vehicle or squadron equipped with Monofilament Projectors suffers one hit per charging model.
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Offline Tactical Genius

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Re: Point Defence Systems - new toys for vehicles!
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2012, 07:01:45 PM »
This is going to upsett tau players ....
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Offline Pottsey

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Re: Point Defence Systems - new toys for vehicles!
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2012, 08:03:50 AM »
So tanks are going to be winning CC all over the place? I also do not agree 6th has hurt vehicles all round. vehicles are way tougher and harder to kill and have greatky benfited. So tanks are going to be winning CC all over the place? I also do not agree 6th has hurt vehicles all round. Vehicles are way tougher and harder to kill and have greatly benefited.

Offline Wargamer

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Re: Point Defence Systems - new toys for vehicles!
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2012, 09:39:13 AM »
So tanks are going to be winning CC all over the place? I also do not agree 6th has hurt vehicles all round. vehicles are way tougher and harder to kill and have greatky benfited. So tanks are going to be winning CC all over the place? I also do not agree 6th has hurt vehicles all round. Vehicles are way tougher and harder to kill and have greatly benefited.
I'm sorry, but I just cannot take this seriously; Hull Points are a major reduction in survivability for vehicles, and I've got the tabletop experience to prove it not only from my games, but from other people's games I've watched and been told about.

Vehicles are weaker now. Moreover, they are also weaker relative to other units because they don't get Overwatch.
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Offline crisis_vyper

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Re: Point Defence Systems - new toys for vehicles!
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2012, 12:37:27 PM »
So tanks are going to be winning CC all over the place? I also do not agree 6th has hurt vehicles all round. vehicles are way tougher and harder to kill and have greatky benfited. So tanks are going to be winning CC all over the place? I also do not agree 6th has hurt vehicles all round. Vehicles are way tougher and harder to kill and have greatly benefited.
I'm sorry, but I just cannot take this seriously; Hull Points are a major reduction in survivability for vehicles, and I've got the tabletop experience to prove it not only from my games, but from other people's games I've watched and been told about.

Vehicles are weaker now. Moreover, they are also weaker relative to other units because they don't get Overwatch.

It's too early to say anything Wargamer as the meta is not set in stone. This will take at least 2 years or so.

In 5th, vehicles are too tough to crack and lead to the 5th edition meta of Mech armies all around .  In 6th, some vehicles suffered like the good o' razorback but some vehicles have a much more sweeter time like those of Eldar, Necron and Dark Eldar as they now do not have to be nerfed by one single shot. And not to mention that now cover saves are more important than before, and positioning is key to any battle. As for vehicle assaults, if you have put your vehicles in such a position to be assaulted to begin with it deserves to be destroyed.

And these days, shooting is much more violent than 5th and the main priority for most mech armies is to shoot the assaulter down with proper flanking moves to negate the 'Tanker' which will take the hits for the team. Main weaknesses of vehicles these days is that glancing them to death works. It is in a sense a return to 4th edition rules of glancing kills, but without making it into a true death trap for transports.

And these are house rules, not true rules.

Offline The Man They Call Jayne

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Re: Point Defence Systems - new toys for vehicles!
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2012, 12:41:11 PM »
Whilst I do like the Hull Point mechanic, I don't like the implementation of it when it comes to glancing.

It is too easy. For me it should be "On a glancing hit roll a d6, on a roll of a 4+ lose 1 hull point."

Just losing the hull point because you lost some paintwork is stupid.
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Offline crisis_vyper

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Re: Point Defence Systems - new toys for vehicles!
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2012, 01:06:27 PM »
Just losing the hull point because you lost some paintwork is stupid.

I do not think that glancing is just 'losing a paintjob' in the system. Glancing hits could just be tank roundds getting stuck in the shell without penetrating into the vital ammunition compartment or the passenger or a brutal gash against the tank's side.

Offline The Man They Call Jayne

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Re: Point Defence Systems - new toys for vehicles!
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2012, 01:11:40 PM »
"Glancing" covers alot of things though. You HAVE hit the tank in SOMEWAY so you have to do something, but its follish to suggest that that automatically takes out somekind of chunk. Especially when you look at the whole Gauss autoglance thing, its just madness.
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Offline crisis_vyper

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Re: Point Defence Systems - new toys for vehicles!
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2012, 01:22:49 PM »
"Glancing" covers alot of things though. You HAVE hit the tank in SOMEWAY so you have to do something, but its follish to suggest that that automatically takes out somekind of chunk. Especially when you look at the whole Gauss autoglance thing, its just madness.

Well, just imagine a bigger chunk getting ripped off I guess. This is the cinematic edition after all......

Offline The Man They Call Jayne

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Re: Point Defence Systems - new toys for vehicles!
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2012, 01:25:09 PM »
Like is said, the mechanic is fine, i do like it. Its just too easy to destroy a vehicle with simple weapons.
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Offline Pottsey

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Re: Point Defence Systems - new toys for vehicles!
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2012, 01:39:19 PM »
So tanks are going to be winning CC all over the place? I also do not agree 6th has hurt vehicles all round. vehicles are way tougher and harder to kill and have greatky benfited. So tanks are going to be winning CC all over the place? I also do not agree 6th has hurt vehicles all round. Vehicles are way tougher and harder to kill and have greatly benefited.
I'm sorry, but I just cannot take this seriously; Hull Points are a major reduction in survivability for vehicles, and I've got the tabletop experience to prove it not only from my games, but from other people's games I've watched and been told about.

Vehicles are weaker now. Moreover, they are also weaker relative to other units because they don't get Overwatch.
Well then I would say you are playing massive different games to us or you are not aware of the cover rules. (by different I mean different style of army
« Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 01:44:39 PM by Pottsey »

Offline cazboab

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Re: Point Defence Systems - new toys for vehicles!
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2012, 01:48:51 PM »
Vehicles are easier to kill than they were in 5th. Lets assume just for this thread that that wasn't intentional and there aren't a bunch of other rules changes that mean you have to play the game differently all round, and we want to make vehicles tougher again.

One hit per charging model is far too reliable, and way too powerful, ad to that tanks have never fought back in close combat and its difficult to justify. Yes its easy to get around overwatch with a small cheap unit, but how the hell does a launcher carry enough ammo and have a high enough rate of fire to blast 50 conscripts in the same time it can hit 3 paladins?

This is an offensive measure, tanks need better defence, maybe have ablative armour that can ad another hull point that's glanced at 1 less than AV but still penetrated at AV+1, or to make it balanced and make sure everyone gets the same, just double the hull points or house rule glancing hits to only take a hull point on a 4+.

Offline Wargamer

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Re: Point Defence Systems - new toys for vehicles!
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2012, 01:58:53 PM »
Quote
It's too early to say anything Wargamer as the meta is not set in stone.
Wrong.

The "meta" is about how people counter their own weakness, and the enemy's strength.

"Meta" doesn't factor in here. This is about maths.

Here's the example from a game I witnessed: a Venerable Dreadnought took three Glancing Hits from Haywire Grenades. Now, I'm going to do the math on just what the odds were, in each Edition, of those shots killing the Dreadnought (ignoring its 'Venerable' rule) given that they have scored 3 Glancing Hits.
3rd / 4th Edition: 42.1% The attacker needs to roll 1 or more 6s on 3D6.
5th Edition: 0%. It is not possible to kill the Dreadnought without additional factors.
6th Edition: 100%. 3 Glancings = 3 lost Hull Points. Vehicle is wrecked with no further rolls required.

That's an increase of vulnerability right there.

What 6th has done is make Vehicles more useful in the short term; it's a little harder to stun-lock a vehicle now, but overall they're screwed this Edition.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 03:14:37 PM by Wargamer »
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Offline Pottsey

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Re: Point Defence Systems - new toys for vehicles!
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2012, 02:21:21 PM »
Wrong.

The "meta" is about how people counter their own weakness, and the enemy's strength.

"Meta" doesn't factor in here. This is about maths.

Here's the example from a game I witnessed: a Venerable Dreadnought took three Glancing Hits from Haywire Grenades. Now, I'm going to do the math on just what the odds were, in each Edition, of those shots killing the Dreadnought (ignoring its 'Venerable' rule) given that they have scored 3 Glancing Hits.
3rd / 4th Edition: 42.1% The attacker needs to roll 1 or more 6s on 3D6.
5th Edition: 0%. It is not possible to kill the Dreadnought without additional factors.
6th Edition: 100%. 3 Glancings = 3 lost Hull Points. Vehicle is wrecked with no further rolls required.

That's an increase of vulnerability right there.

What 6th has done is make Vehicles more useful in the short term; it's a little harder to stun-lock a vehicle now, but overall they're screwed this Edition.
Just because vehicles are weaker in a few areas it does not mean they are overall weaker. What if the walker has extra survivability to make it into CC from my points above? It could well be a case of in 5th it never would have made it into CC in the first place. Only the extra survivability of 6th allowed it to make it into CC to die to Haywire. The plus sides that keep vehicles alive far outweigh the few weaker areas. So overall survivability increases in 6th

My example that happened to me turn 1 I assumed my hammerhead was safe but premeasured to the enemy heavy weapons. Realised I was just in range and if I added on his movement to weapon range I could move left to be outside his max fire range next turn and still fire back. 5th edition I would have been hurt due to not realising range and if I did move not fire as many weapons, 6th edition gives more survivability.

Another battle I realised I cannot get out of range of enemy heavy weapons, I move my tank so the enemy weapons cannot see nearest facing and I am 25% behind ruins. I can still shoot my target but I get a 3+cover save in 6th against zero cover save in 5th. If it was a fortification I would have had a 2+ cover but it was only a ruin this game.

In CC a unit takes causality
« Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 02:35:21 PM by Pottsey »

Offline InsaneTD

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Re: Point Defence Systems - new toys for vehicles!
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2012, 02:47:45 PM »
What's it take to hit a walker with a Grenade in CC now? Still what it was in 5th?