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Chaos Marine Numbers

Started by Thantos, August 28, 2012, 09:38:35 AM

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Thantos

I read some fiction where it mentioned something aloing the lines of "chaos marines scary, but thank the emperor there are so few of them ".

This got me thinking, how many chaos marines are still out there? Sure, in model terms, there are A LOT of chaos armies. But in the fiction, are chaos marines slowly dying out and unable to replace their losses?

During the Horus Heresy half the legions turn to chaos and join Horus. Now 10,000 years later in the present day (yes, I AM a Chaplain, i live in the 41st millenium and count it as present day!) and chaos marines have been fighting on and off, losing numbers to battling the Imperium, losing to mutation and losing to warring each other.

So how many chaos marines are around now? If you kill one, is that a major loss which cant be replenished? Do they still recruit? And if so, from what populations?


crisis_vyper

Quote from: Thantos on August 28, 2012, 09:38:35 AM
I read some fiction where it mentioned something aloing the lines of "chaos marines scary, but thank the emperor there are so few of them ".

This got me thinking, how many chaos marines are still out there? Sure, in model terms, there are A LOT of chaos armies. But in the fiction, are chaos marines slowly dying out and unable to replace their losses?

During the Horus Heresy half the legions turn to chaos and join Horus. Now 10,000 years later in the present day (yes, I AM a Chaplain, i live in the 41st millenium and count it as present day!) and chaos marines have been fighting on and off, losing numbers to battling the Imperium, losing to mutation and losing to warring each other.

So how many chaos marines are around now? If you kill one, is that a major loss which cant be replenished? Do they still recruit? And if so, from what populations?

You mean those from the original legion? As far as the fluff is concerned, Chaos Space Marines also include those renegade chapters that have embraced Chaos.

As for the acquisition and requisition of such resources to make a Chaos Space Marine, there are many novels pulling things out from the basic recruitment found in the Blood Gorgons novels to the weird mutation birthing things like those in the Storm of Iron. If you want to throw in the time travelling properties of the Warp, you could also say that a constant influx of them are also coming in from the past, present, and future.

DEF Knight

yeah in terms of various novels there's been quite a few interesting ways new Chaos Marines have popped back up I've seen. From bringing members of the Thousand Sons back from the dead, to stealing big containers of Gene Seed, to Daemons simply making people into marines there's plenty of ways.

The "thank the Emperor there's so few" is more of a perception thing I believe. Very rarely are there incursion out of the Eye from CSM, and even rarer are they considerable in size, but I would think that there's likely a very large number of Chaos Marines kicking around (perhaps even in the same ballpark as Space Marines), simply that they're all quite scattered and disorganized.

Wargamer

I am personally getting more than a little weary of the latest idea that has sprung from the Horus Heresy novels...

"A Chapter was, like, ten thousand Marines back then!"

I think Know No Fear is the guilty party in this one, as it provides figures that imply the Ultramarines may have had strengths of 300,000 Marines or more. Others may be part of it as well.

That... that just annoys me. It annoys me because the Heresy background always stated the Ultramarines split into around 28 Chapters, that they were one of the largest Legions, and they suffered very few losses during the Heresy. This means that Legions were 10-20x the size of Chapters, and that in turn fits why they were so terrifying. Seriously, imagine 20 Space Marine Chapters in a crusade, with Guard and Titan Legion support, and you have a force that will burn entire sectors.

Now... well, now it's much clearer that the Ultramarines took a huge hammering at Calth. Fine, I accept that, but for the numbers to make sense the Ultramarines now must have lost 90% of their fighting strength, if not more, during the Heresy. In fact, every Loyalist Legion must have suffered losses equal to or greater than that order of magnitude to explain the subsequent foundings.

This, of course, leaves us with a rather annoying option on the Chaos front; they didn't suffer these losses. Thus, there could still be three billion Word Bearers and eighty trillion Black Legionnaires running around... we just never get enough of them in one place to conquer the universe. ::)
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Deraj

You're also forgetting the decay and mutation in geneseeds among loyalists. Not to mention those destroyed in battle. Loyalists are fully in the material realm, meaning they've been fighting and losing geneseed for 10,000 years, yet the traitor marines have been in the warp or EOT where time flows differently. For some of them its been as few as a couple hundred years.

The time disparity could be a reason for there seeming to be so few. A chaos warband goes into the warp to resupply for 10 years and comes back out a thousand years later. Another reason is that getting out of the EoT has complications, IE why the 13th black crusade is attacking cadia. Aaron Dembski-Bowden approaches it interestingly in a couple of his night lord books, outright stating that any large force trying to break out of the eye would be seen and hammered by the primogenitors. Add to that when there was the 'largest gathering of night lords since the assault on terra' there were only 12 thousand of them.

Another thing is: why can't chaos marines recoup their losses? They have human followers, and human slaves. Why can't they implant the strongest 'genestock' then indoctrinate them? Hell, world eaters, night lords, iron warriors, and alpha legion likely have less mutation than the average loyalist marines due to time flow, culling of mutations, khorne's disdain for mutation, and with the iron warriors and world eaters the fact that their primarchs are, or recently have been alive. Even the alpha legion may or may not have a living primarch....

Irisado

Quote from: Deraj on August 28, 2012, 04:23:40 PM
Another thing is: why can't chaos marines recoup their losses? They have human followers, and human slaves. Why can't they implant the strongest 'genestock' then indoctrinate them?

If the background in Black Crusade is anything to go by, it's down to the fact that only geneseed from other fallen Chaos Space Marines, or from Space Marines can be used.  Genetic material from other humans just isn't suitable.

As far as numbers are concerned, the premise behind turning the Chaos codex into more of a renegade concept was due to the fragmentation of many Legions, and the dwindling numbers of Chaos Space Marines still in existence from the original Chaos Legions.  Chaos Legion forces are rarely seen, and are somewhat few in number on the whole.
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Charistoph

Quote from: Deraj on August 28, 2012, 04:23:40 PM
Another thing is: why can't chaos marines recoup their losses? They have human followers, and human slaves. Why can't they implant the strongest 'genestock' then indoctrinate them? Hell, world eaters, night lords, iron warriors, and alpha legion likely have less mutation than the average loyalist marines due to time flow, culling of mutations, khorne's disdain for mutation, and with the iron warriors and world eaters the fact that their primarchs are, or recently have been alive. Even the alpha legion may or may not have a living primarch....

Who says they can't recoup their losses?  Every Legion has their access to a method to regain their losses, though some are higher priced than others (like the services of Fabulous Billy), and their base human stock is incredibly limited in viability.  Most of their human stock are not screened like the Loyalists can, and are taken from raids or surviving humans in the Eye of Terror.
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Matt1785

The Horus Heresy novels / audio dramas are bringing about massive numbers of marines in space marine Legions.  For example, the Raven Guard were one of the smallest legions and numbered nearly 80,000 Space Marines when you listen to Ravens Flight.. if you put all the info in the drama together with 70 - 90 % casualties and then saying they've lost nearly 70,000 warriros, disregarding those that came to rescue the remaining warriors.

Know no Fear numbers the Ultramarines as a massive legion... but they also take EXTREME casualties due to the Calth incident.

Fear to Tread, the most recent book I've read, the Blood Angels number 80,000 warriors on planet...  Space Marine Legions were massive, which means that with all of the splinter factions breaking away, there could be quite a few Chaos Marines to jump away from Terra and flee to the Eye of Terror.

Take into account information given about the Alpha Legion in the Deliverance Lost and they could be without number.  All in all I'd say Chaos Marines out-number loyalists... but agree that very few times do they all leave the Eye together or unified... although the new Main Rulebook states that all traitor legions are leaving the Eye together for this 13th Black Crusade.

All in all, I'd again figure there may even be more traitor then loyal... not to mention they live on and on in the Eye without fear of time.

Wargamer

I don't buy any of these explanations, frankly.

The ludicrously-sized Legions is voided by the simple maths of the Loyalists - the only one that divided on the kind of scale to support these Legion sizes are the Ultramarines, who (until recently) are said to have gotten through the Heresy with minimal losses. Ergo, a 'full strength' Legion must have been around 10-30,000 Marines, not half a million as the Horus Heresy books seem to claim.

Secondly, on Chaos recruiting in the Eye. Yes, it is indeed possible... but that does not explain how all we ever see are 'warriors who have fought since the Horus Heresy'. On that front, GW royally shot themselves in the foot, and about two Editions ago should have just written those Chaos Marines off as having all now become either Chosen, Possessed, or irrevocably lost to the Cults. That way, you can have the armies of bad-ass super-elite warriors, or you can have armies of Chaos Marines who don't have ten thousand years of combat experience under their belt.
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Matt1785

All I know is what I read, the books give me numbers and I relay those numbers.

GW has made it a habit of doing whatever they please, and sure they may have said a Legion was 30,000 Marines before, but now their books are published with 80 - 100's of thousands of Marines.  If that's the case.. then I don't see arguing it.  Games and lore will always change to suit the hobby, and I like the idea of massive Space Marine Legions, it makes the Heresy seem all the more grand.

I know it sometimes stinks to get used to a set standard and then see it remade, but in the end, we move forward.  I know lots of people hate the new Necron lore.. but I know others who love it... But I still have to stand by Marine numbers for Chaos being in the 100's of thousands.  But different books have different info.

Wargamer

I have always felt 40K lore should be viewed through the eyes of a historian.

Consider the following: 1066, William 'the bastard' of Normandy defeated King Harold at Hastings. The battle took place on or about the 14th of October, and Harold died to an arrow through the eye.

There are many details we do not know about that battle, but we can make assumptions. We can assume that Harold's army had very little cavalry or archers, because armies of that period rarely did. Cavalry was more common on the mainland, however, so even if no source stated they did, it's a fair assumption.

Now, in 40K terms, what we have is this: the post-Heresy fighting strengths of the Legions Astartes who remained loyal to the Imperium. Using that information, here is what we know...

Dark Angels: Confirmed at 4,000 strong (4 Codex Chapters).
White Scars: Approx. 5,000 strong (formed 5 Chapters, presumed Codex).
Space Wolves: Unknown (formed two Non-Codex Chapters).
Imperial Fists: Approx 4,000 strong (formed 4 Chapters, but possible Codex deviation).
Blood Angels: Confirmed at 6,000 strong (6 Codex Chapters).
Iron Hands: Approx 3,000 strong (3 Chapters, presumed Codex).
Ultramarines: At least 10,000 strong (10 known, named Codex Chapters). Other sources claim 24,000 (23 unnamed Codex successors).
Salamanders: Unknown (1-3 Chapters, presumed Codex).
Raven Guard; Approx 4,000 strong (formed 4 Chapters, presumed Codex).

So... let's assume that all Chapters are more or less 1,000 strong (for the sake of a conservative guess), and stick to purely confirmed Chapters. That puts the Loyalists at 35 Chapters, or 35,000 troops.

If you believe the new Heresy novels, that's less than what the Ultramarines had left over.

So be a historian for a moment; we know what was left after the Heresy, and we have claims of what happened during the Heresy that do not stack up with that. Which do you believe?
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Matt1785

Well, at the current moment, the Heresy has not been fought to its conclusion... so it is possible that the Space Marine Legions were 80 to 100K strong and that due to the devastating losses of the Heresy they were left with minimal forces... as of yet the books obviously haven't taken us to anywhere where we can see what happened.  At this stage of the Heresy we can assume that the Salamanders, and Iron Hands are all but destroyed... with minimal Marines left to their chapter. 

The problem with comparing History to 40K is.. well, besides the obvious reality vs. science fiction.. is that what's written has to be taken as fact.  The books are told through the eyes of the ones that were in the Heresy, they're not 'assumed' ideas of what happened or leave anything to speculation because they're shown as 'this is what happened'.  I think this is what GW is doing because for too long they just never said anything about the Heresy save for a paragraph in the rulebooks.  The idea of this long story is great in my mind.. but I digress because this is falling off topic, my apologies.

The only thing in my mind that can happen is that we follow the Heresy to its completion to see what happens in the end.  It's entirely possible that we'll get to the end and almost EVERY Legion will become endangered.. which I think is still very plausible, even WITH 100K warriors to start.  I still think the best knowledge we have of the Heresy is being slowly but surely published...  I just find it hard to argue with it, but who knows.. maybe in the end everyone will be right... but like I said before... GW rarely cares what it's written before as they continue forward... so it really is almost an impossible question to answer...

How many?  Who knows?

Rej

Quote from: Wargamer on September 04, 2012, 12:41:15 AM
So be a historian for a moment; we know what was left after the Heresy, and we have claims of what happened during the Heresy that do not stack up with that. Which do you believe?

Out of curiosity, why is one considered to be fact and the other just a claim? What can't they both just be claims? Or facts?

What makes the knowledge of what was left after the heresy more factual then the "claims" of what happened during? As far as I'm concerned they're both just sets of claims.

If we're looking at the information as historians we have to look at who wrote/left/created the information and consider why they did.

Where did the information on the numbers and chapters created after the heresy come from? Presumably the Imperium. Would they actually record the true numbers? Could they actually know the true numbers? What benefits would they gain by falsifying the numbers?

Then we have to ask the same sort of questions about the Horus Heresy books info. A few of the books have introductions that establish it as story being told to you by someone who was there. How much of the story do they embelish? Which parts are they not telling you? What made them decide to tell you what they do tell you?

And I guess we also have to do the same sort of thing on the information surrounding the Chaos Marines numbers and activities now. Most of the information is filtered through the Imperiums bias's. Haven't the Alpha Legion been declared as wiped out like 2-3 seperate times now?

The point is, we won't ever know the actual truth anyway and I don't think it matters to much that we won't, someone in the future will write something that contradicts in anyway and we'd just have to re adjust the truth again. That's not the say there isn't value in trying to understand it.

My guess is that the numbers in the Legions would be higher then we first thought. Think about how many people it would take to conquer a galaxy, let alone do it in 200yrs. It's a lot.
And hey, the series hasn't ended yet. I'm assuming all of the factions are going to face losses in the extreme which will bring the numbers closer to what we used to know. Sure the Ultramarines might suffer horrible losses and be left with 10000 (or 24000), but hey,  thats probably relatively unscathed compared to what other factions might face.
Phew...

Wargamer

The thing is, we know (albeit via an out of universe source) that the Legions began at around 10,000 strong. Andy Chambers mentions this, and that fits with the numbers I've presented.

According to Dan Abnett, 10,000 is one Company of Ultramarines, and there are around two dozen or more Companies of Ultramarines. That's a massive upsurge in a relatively short period of time, so much so that, for me at least, it lies well outside what is acceptable as a plausbile Legion size.

Now, go back to the Second Founding again. The Ultramarines got out of the Heresy pretty much intact, were one of the largest, if not the largest Legions, and we have claims they formed 24 Chapters total. That's 24,000 Marines, over double the starting strength of a Legion. Plausible? Very.

Now, Calth. The Heresy novels state Calth dealt the Ultramarines a crippling blow and devastated their Legion... but, again, our Second Founding source supports that. Why? Because there are only ten confirmed Chapters made from the Ultramarines Legion, and we know the Ultramarines were, as stated, a large Legion. 30,000 or so sounds believable for the Ultramarines, meaning they can easily suffer up to 2/3rds losses and still divide into a lot of Chapters.

But going from half a million to ten thousand? That rather smacks of someone either trying to hard, or just not understanding what numbers are...
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Another thing I would point out here is that the early books are a lot more in line with the initial figures for the size of a Legion, the Thousand Sons, for example, are approximately 9000 strong when Prospero falls. I can't remember the figures for the Sons of Horus or the Emperor's Children but I believe they were around the 10k mark too. Why would there be such a huge gulf in numbers between the Ultramarines and the Warmaster's Legion? Or the Word Bearers and the Emperor's Children seeing as The First Heretic puts the Word Bearers numbers at 100k repeatedly. I personally think the numbers in some of the Heresy books are simply exaggeration in an attempt to entertain, which is unfortunate, I've come to expect better from Abnett and co.
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