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[Tau Empire] Seeker Missile Fired at Fliers rules clarification

Started by Unusual Suspect, September 10, 2012, 02:25:34 AM

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Grunt90

It's not pointless though because directly from the marker light entry in the codex, it reads that it lets the vehicle fire the missile. That's where it is relevant.

Unusual Suspect

#46
To some, Grunt90, it is a matter of interpretation whether the vehicle is actually firing the missile (even though it is directly stated to be so in the Markerlight entry), due to a combination of the fluff (detailing the lack of control over the firing mechanisms on the vehicle itself and the role of the "Markerlight User" in that process) and the mechanics by which Seekers are fired (as ably stated by Charistoph).

To me, the Seeker Missile is a weapon fired by the vehicle (because, hey, that's what the rules say) with a metric shtlk ton of exceptions regarding if, how, and when it is fired, and the peculiarities of its targetting.  As those exceptions are not explicitly relevant to the snap fire rule caused by shooting at a flier (I'll edit in the exact rule later), and the FAQ entry you and I have quoted can apply due to the application of Snap Fire rules that doesn't mechanically distinguish itself from the same application based on the Shaken and Stunned conditions noted in the FAQ, it stands to reason that the FAQ answer is applicable to firing Seekers at fliers - it is done at BS 5.

I can understand the viewpoints of others that the exceptions and apparent intentions of the writers overwhelm that supposedly tenuous rule connection, even though I don't agree with it.  :P
I you private dancer.

Grunt90

I agree, and I can see the other side of argument easily. I guess it'll just have to be one of those things that are mentioned in tournament rules and, I guess during a friendly game you just better hope for a friendly opponent :P

Raving Bonkers

I never really used seekers, so I haven't looked into this.

But is it not Codex beats Rule Book?

So with an FAQ involved, a codex would still beat a rulebook FAQ.

Which means the Tau Codex FAQ beats them all and has the Q&A already presented that clearly states:
Q: If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken, Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or Ballistic Skill 5? (P29)

A: Ballistic Skill 5.




Now if you really wanted to nit pick you can say the rule book says the BS is 'counted' as BS 1, it doesn't say 'reduced' to BS 1 like it does in the Tau FAQ Q&A.




And now having just checked the rule book for the damage chart. (as i haven't once had a shaken or stunned result yet :D) The exact wording for shaken and stunned is not the BS is reduced to 1. It is the vehicle can only fire snap shots.

Tau Q&A says seekers missiles fire at BS 5 when shaken and stunned are used as examples.
Firing while stunned/shaken or when shooting at fliers are done as snap shots. The same thing.

So I would say seekers fire at BS5, but you still need that markerlight to hit on a BS of 1.




RB

Cammerz

I played an Apocalypse game today with 5000pts of Tau on one side and we all agreed that once a markerlight token is attached to the flyer, you just need to roll a 2+ for the seeker to hit. Although the number of times a 1 was scored on that second roll was disproportionately high.

If you think about it logically, its a homing missile, it doesn't really matter if you're on the ground stationary or going very quickly through the air, Its probably going to hit you regardless.

InsaneTD

A better description would be a guided, ground following cruise missile, as it needs the marker to guide it. Smart Missile would be homing as they don't need a marker. But that's beside the point.

I wish FAQ writers would  back check what has/is in to other FAQs. Then we wouldn't get situations like this. Has anyone checked to see if the rules hierarchy still actually exists? It existed because of special rules in the codii, but now most if not all are listed in the rulebook.

Charistoph

Quote from: Raving Bonkers on October 13, 2012, 09:11:59 PM
And now having just checked the rule book for the damage chart. (as i haven't once had a shaken or stunned result yet :D) The exact wording for shaken and stunned is not the BS is reduced to 1. It is the vehicle can only fire snap shots.

Tau Q&A says seekers missiles fire at BS 5 when shaken and stunned are used as examples.
Firing while stunned/shaken or when shooting at fliers are done as snap shots. The same thing.

So I would say seekers fire at BS5, but you still need that markerlight to hit on a BS of 1.

Now, they are used as examples, but my point earlier on ignoring this for relevance in shooting at a Flyer is that the Vehicle's Condition (which is what it is referring to) has never been of issue in firing a Seeker (unless the vehicle itself was calling the Marker Light's use of course), but the question is on the TARGET's status, not the vehicle's.

BTW, I agree it should hit as BS 5, or at the worst, a roll off.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?

Quote from: Megavolt-They called me crazy.  They called me insane!  THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right."

Pottsey

Quote from: Charistoph on October 15, 2012, 04:27:39 PM
Quote from: Raving Bonkers on October 13, 2012, 09:11:59 PM
And now having just checked the rule book for the damage chart. (as i haven't once had a shaken or stunned result yet :D) The exact wording for shaken and stunned is not the BS is reduced to 1. It is the vehicle can only fire snap shots.

Tau Q&A says seekers missiles fire at BS 5 when shaken and stunned are used as examples.
Firing while stunned/shaken or when shooting at fliers are done as snap shots. The same thing.

So I would say seekers fire at BS5, but you still need that markerlight to hit on a BS of 1.

Now, they are used as examples, but my point earlier on ignoring this for relevance in shooting at a Flyer is that the Vehicle's Condition (which is what it is referring to) has never been of issue in firing a Seeker (unless the vehicle itself was calling the Marker Light's use of course), but the question is on the TARGET's status, not the vehicle's.

BTW, I agree it should hit as BS 5, or at the worst, a roll off.
From a fluff point of view BS 1 makes no sense. Seeker missiles are the Tau

Unusual Suspect

Quote from: Pottsey on October 21, 2012, 08:42:07 PM
Quote from: Charistoph on October 15, 2012, 04:27:39 PM
Quote from: Raving Bonkers on October 13, 2012, 09:11:59 PM
And now having just checked the rule book for the damage chart. (as i haven't once had a shaken or stunned result yet :D) The exact wording for shaken and stunned is not the BS is reduced to 1. It is the vehicle can only fire snap shots.

Tau Q&A says seekers missiles fire at BS 5 when shaken and stunned are used as examples.
Firing while stunned/shaken or when shooting at fliers are done as snap shots. The same thing.

So I would say seekers fire at BS5, but you still need that markerlight to hit on a BS of 1.

Now, they are used as examples, but my point earlier on ignoring this for relevance in shooting at a Flyer is that the Vehicle's Condition (which is what it is referring to) has never been of issue in firing a Seeker (unless the vehicle itself was calling the Marker Light's use of course), but the question is on the TARGET's status, not the vehicle's.

BTW, I agree it should hit as BS 5, or at the worst, a roll off.
From a fluff point of view BS 1 makes no sense. Seeker missiles are the Tau
I you private dancer.

InsaneTD

It hit aircraft on 4s when first introduced by forgeworld in the Taros Campgain.