News:

Cammerz brings us some fantastically painted and customised Alpha Legion. Check out their work with detail shots and design insight.

Main Menu

500pt Tau army for 6th - help please!

Started by Stewie Griffin, September 29, 2012, 03:43:13 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Stewie Griffin

Hey everyone

Basically I'm re-jigging my Tau list for 6th, but also more specifically to deal with an Eldar friend of mine who has beaten me a few times recently. He likes to swap things around a bit, but the list I faced yesterday included about 6 jetbikes with a jetseer, 5 pathfinders who pretty much stayed in cover and didn't move (making them extremely difficult to shift with conventional fire), and about 5 warp-spiders I think.

Anyway, after a couple of defeats I've gone back to the drawing board to try and figure out how to beat him, and here is what I've come up with . It's not quite finished yet though, so I'd like some advice on how to drop some points but still be effective.

HQ

'El - T/L MP, Flamer - 72

Troops

XV8s (2) - T/L MPs, Flamers - 94

XV8s (2) - MP, PR, MT - 126

FWs (6) - 'Ui with ML - 80

FWs (6) - 'Ui with ML - 80

Sniper Drone Team - 80

Total = 532

Thoughts on that?

Basically the idea behind this is to have my suits do pretty much all of the work here, the infantry at the back is there simply to provide Markerlight and Rail Rifle support. They'll walk upto about 30' (Or 36' if I want to just use MLs) away and start sending out Markerlights to help out the suits. Priority targets are the jetbikes - the idea is to knock my friend's jink save down to something that's pretty much pointless, and then hit him with AP 2 and 3 weaponry so that the jetbikes just drop like flies. I know I can't rely on the MLs to all hit 100% of the time (a personal annoyance to me, because it can't be that difficult to shine a laser-pointer at something that you only hit half the time...), but even if one hits and sets the cover save to 5+ rather than 4+, it makes it that much easier to kill the bikes. The Fireknife and Sniper drones will be key to achieving this.

Next, the Deathrains... I know that the Flamer set-up isn't always very popular over the targeting array, but I've picked it instead for a couple of reasons:- 1) the fact that it ignores cover - great for killing pathfinders who rely on their 3/2+ cover save to survive, provided I hug cover long enough to get there - this will be the deathrains primary role actually, although while they're travelling there they'll still be sending out missile shots, 2) ignores jink saves (although the jetbikes will still have their 3+ regular save to fall back on, nothing flamers can do about that, and chances are if I get close enough to use them anyway, they'll hit more often than missile pods, and due to that possibly cause more wounds, and 3) as a charge deterrent, my friend yesterday when he was fighting me wasn't bothered about charging the deathrains I ran then (when they didn't have flamers) - chances are he'd probably think twice if there are going to be 3D3 auto hits.

However there are a few weaknesses...

1) The FWs and sniper drones will be vulnerable to getting caught in CC - either from warp-spiders or jetbikes, so it's imperative that those are neutralised fast.

2) Lack of any heavy Anti-Tank - AV13+ basically, however there are lots of missile pods, and this is Eldar I'm fighting (and he doesn't usually field any proper tanks anyway, like Fire Prisms or Falcons...), so maybe there won't really be much of an issue here...

So yeah, thoughts, tactics etc? How can I drop those 30pts? I was considering dropping the fire-knives down to deathrains, but that would then leave me with absolutely no AP2, and also make it consequently harder to kill the jet-bikes. Same goes for warp-spiders too. I also don't have the stuff to convert my 2 fireknives into deathrains, and that would also leave me with no more FK suit models either... Alternatively I could perhaps drop the FW Markerlights and 'Uis, but again, that then leaves my only markerlight as the Sniper Drones, and hence the max amount of buffs I can get against the jetbikes would be to drop their cover save by 1, hardly that good. (and that's if it hits at all...)

Anyway thanks for reading  - I hope I can get a decent list out of this.

knightperson

Hmmm. There's a SAP'O trick I've found I like quite a bit, and you have most of the ingredients for it already. Take a commander, probably fireknife, give him a couple of shield drones and the A.S.S. normally found on broadsides, and attach him to the sniper drone team. You now have a fully mobile blob of the markerlight, rail rifles, plasma / missile, and a couple of extra wounds; and they all get the 4+ cover save in the open or 2+ in any terrain. It's a fair amount of points in one unit at 500, but it's hard to crack. Even if you don't choose to try that stunt, I would go with two real weapons on the warlord rather than missile pod and flamer. If you're worried about the Eldar pathfinders, maybe Airbursting Frag Projector and either missile pod or burst cannon?

Beyond that, you listed your XV8's as troops, but you know they're actually Elites unless Farsight is in the list, right? Getting a decent amount of Tau troops into 500 points is tricky without sacrificing higher-strength firepower, but I think you're going to want a little more than 2 minimum-sized squads. If you trimmed the suits a bit you could buff up the fire warrior squads, or maybe even put in a small kroot screen.

Dealing with Fortuned Eldar Jetbikes is pretty hard any way you look at it. Sometimes, your only realistic choices are to drop enough of them before they get moving or to just ignore them and concentrate on another area of the battlefield, forcing them to take it away from you rather than the other way around!
Cured of what I'm suffering from, but suffering from the cure.

Carrelio

Even if Farsight is in the list XV8s cannot be troops

Stewie Griffin

Quote from: knightperson on September 30, 2012, 08:07:16 PM
Hmmm. There's a SAP'O trick I've found I like quite a bit, and you have most of the ingredients for it already. Take a commander, probably fireknife, give him a couple of shield drones and the A.S.S. normally found on broadsides, and attach him to the sniper drone team. You now have a fully mobile blob of the markerlight, rail rifles, plasma / missile, and a couple of extra wounds; and they all get the 4+ cover save in the open or 2+ in any terrain.

That's an interesting idea... can the suit join the drone unit though? Since they're not the same unit type? And also, in the ASS section of the rules, it says if a suit gets equipped with it and joins a unit, then they all must be similarly equipped - the sniper drones can't get it, so I dunno if it would be legal... or is this something you found in the FAQ?


It's a fair amount of points in one unit at 500, but it's hard to crack. Even if you don't choose to try that stunt, I would go with two real weapons on the warlord rather than missile pod and flamer. If you're worried about the Eldar pathfinders, maybe Airbursting Frag Projector and either missile pod or burst cannon?

I picked the Deathrain set-up simply because I was trying to find ways to cut points I'm afraid :( - he used to be a fire-knife.

Beyond that, you listed your XV8's as troops, but you know they're actually Elites unless Farsight is in the list, right? Getting a decent amount of Tau troops into 500 points is tricky without sacrificing higher-strength firepower, but I think you're going to want a little more than 2 minimum-sized squads. If you trimmed the suits a bit you could buff up the fire warrior squads, or maybe even put in a small kroot screen.

Yup I'm aware that they're not troops - it's just the way I write my lists, "Troops" in the way I use it, just means the non-characters, doesn't matter if they're elite, FA or whatever, I just list 'em all under the one thing because it's easier, though I still follow FoC. I'm a little unsure of the idea of buffing up the FW squads... as I just don't think they'd be that decent in fighting the particular eldar list I'm facing - they're not great in the BS department (though suits are the same), they can have no heavy or AP2 weapons, and they are less mobile, they're one redeeming feature is that they can capture objectives, and I'll admit that is a weakness in my army, the lack of objective grabbers. But I just think that the suits need to be as well equipped as possible, or I'm going to die before the end of the game anyway... Kroot I'm interested in... what do you mean by a screen? Won't that block LoS for the Markerlights?

Dealing with Fortuned Eldar Jetbikes is pretty hard any way you look at it. Sometimes, your only realistic choices are to drop enough of them before they get moving or to just ignore them and concentrate on another area of the battlefield, forcing them to take it away from you rather than the other way around!

Yup, that's the idea :) - hit 'em with markerlights and then drop 'em with plasma and missiles (and if they're stupid to get close enough the pulse rifles too... perhaps one strategy would be to ambush them rather than go and chase them, by not moving and putting the suits on the flanks, and deploying right at the back of the table - I could let them come to about 30' away, get them with Mlights, hit them with plasma and also with rifle fire, once they're down it's simply a matter of dealing with things like rangers and Warp Spiders, which are significantly slower and so should be easier to drop.

My comments in bold ;)

knightperson

Quote
That's in interesting idea... can the suit join the drone unit though? Since they're not the same unit type? And also, in the dyi section of the rules, it says if a suit gets equipped with it and joins a unit, then they all must be similarly equipped - the sniper drones can't get it, so I dunno if it would be legal... or is this something you found in the FAQ?

It's not FAQ'd or anything, but it's direct RAW. The chain of logic is as follows: A.S.S. gives the crisis suit the Slow and Purposeful USR if it chooses to do so (Codex Tau). Crisis suit commanders are Independent Characters, meaning they and their drones can join other units (TAU FAQ) except for single-model units without the IC rule (Rulebook). The descriptions of Slow and Purposeful, Stealth, and Shrouding state that if one model in the unit has the rule, all models benefit from it (Rulebook). Therefore, a SAP'O gives Slow and Purposeful to a sniper drone team, and they give Stealth and Shrouding to him. The only real caveat is that since S&P means you can't overwatch you have to be very clear whether you're using it or not in each movement phase. If you're likely to be charged you're better off deactivating the stabilizers and waiting for it.

QuoteKroot I'm interested in... what do you mean by a screen? Won't that block LoS for the Markerlights?

Screen in this case means a unit out front that the enemy has to get through to get to the more important stuff. Kroot are often used that way to soak up the first charge, soften the charging unit, and buy the real firepower behind the kroot another turn of shooting before they are assaulted. If you are shooting "through the gaps in another unit's formation", the target unit gets a 5+ cover save. Depending on the situation it can be a problem, but it works both ways. If fire warriors are shooting at orcs, it would be bad to be granting them a cover save since they normally wouldn't get one. If it's pink horrors (with AP4 guns and a 4+ invulnerable save) the mutual cover save only benefits the Tau.

Now, the cover saves do not affect markerlights. Cover saves are taken against wounds, not against hits, and markerlights don't do wounds. The target of markerlight-assisted shooting (or a seeker missile) can often take a cover save against the actual weapons, but not against the markerlight itself.
Cured of what I'm suffering from, but suffering from the cure.

Stewie Griffin

Quote from: knightperson on October 01, 2012, 05:03:28 PM
Quote
That's in interesting idea... can the suit join the drone unit though? Since they're not the same unit type? And also, in the dyi section of the rules, it says if a suit gets equipped with it and joins a unit, then they all must be similarly equipped - the sniper drones can't get it, so I dunno if it would be legal... or is this something you found in the FAQ?

It's not FAQ'd or anything, but it's direct RAW. The chain of logic is as follows: A.S.S. gives the crisis suit the Slow and Purposeful USR if it chooses to do so (Codex Tau). Crisis suit commanders are Independent Characters, meaning they and their drones can join other units (TAU FAQ) except for single-model units without the IC rule (Rulebook). The descriptions of Slow and Purposeful, Stealth, and Shrouding state that if one model in the unit has the rule, all models benefit from it (Rulebook). Therefore, a SAP'O gives Slow and Purposeful to a sniper drone team, and they give Stealth and Shrouding to him. The only real caveat is that since S&P means you can't overwatch you have to be very clear whether you're using it or not in each movement phase. If you're likely to be charged you're better off deactivating the stabilizers and waiting for it.

Thanks for that idea - it's interesting certainly, as it allows the fire warriors, drones and commander all a degree of mobility, whereas previously the idea I had was simply to keep them static unless they would be charged. So maybe it's something to try :) - I think as for the El's/O's weaponry goes, a T/L missile pod is best if he's in that role - not only does it fill the required number of slots with the ASS, but it also keeps the range of the guns in the whole unit quite similar.

QuoteKroot I'm interested in... what do you mean by a screen? Won't that block LoS for the Markerlights?

Screen in this case means a unit out front that the enemy has to get through to get to the more important stuff. Kroot are often used that way to soak up the first charge, soften the charging unit, and buy the real firepower behind the kroot another turn of shooting before they are assaulted. If you are shooting "through the gaps in another unit's formation", the target unit gets a 5+ cover save. Depending on the situation it can be a problem, but it works both ways. If fire warriors are shooting at orcs, it would be bad to be granting them a cover save since they normally wouldn't get one. If it's pink horrors (with AP4 guns and a 4+ invulnerable save) the mutual cover save only benefits the Tau.

Now, the cover saves do not affect markerlights. Cover saves are taken against wounds, not against hits, and markerlights don't do wounds. The target of markerlight-assisted shooting (or a seeker missile) can often take a cover save against the actual weapons, but not against the markerlight itself.

Thanks also for this :) - I might consider this... as it is slightly cheaper than a FW unit with markerlight, but then it also deprives me of said markerlight too :( - it also might not be a good replacement for the sniper drones either, because I then lose some of my AP3 weaponry, making the Fireknives the only AP2/3 toters... again, not good!.

I have been thinking of a possible game plan though, if you wouldn't mind reviewing it - it essentially revolves around ambushing the jet-bikes by drawing them toward the gunline/markerlight line of FWs and Drones by not moving, and then once they're about 30' away, using markerlights to light them up, and then concentrating every last shot on them to ensure their demise. Once they're dead, I can then concentrate on other areas of his army,such as his warp-spiders (which will be killed in a similar way - markerlight, then AP2/3 spam) and the Rangers/pathfinders (by the deathrains who hug cover and move up, then proceed to burn 'em out of whatever shit-hole they're hiding in...



Thanks ;) - comments in bold again.

knightperson

I guess I see Eldar Jetbikes as more of a defensive unit than an offensive one. They are very hard to kill, but fairly expensive and aren't as dangerous as some other things, so I put them a ways down on the target priority list.

If the issue is pathfinders, then it's all about finding the right tool for the job. If they are bunkered down in woods or forest, assault them with Kroot; otherwise, hit them with a flamer or ABFP. Generally, don't bother trying to kill them with pulse fire if they have their 2+ cover save! Warp Spiders are a pain, but if your opponent is running them, at least he has soaked a lot of points into them.

Warp Spiders have a 3+ save, lots of mobility, but a short-range gun. Slow and Purposeful sniper drones would make Warp Spiders harder to use effectively since they could maneuver for shots around the terrain the spiders would be hiding behind.
Cured of what I'm suffering from, but suffering from the cure.

Stewie Griffin

Thank you for your help everyone :)

After  a bit of chatting with my friend, we've now decided to start including FW stuff in our armies to spice things up a bit. For me that means things like Tetras for the moment (experimenting with Remoras and Barracudas as and when points are available), for him it means ditching conventional Eldar entirely and going for the Eldar corsair army - which brings new and interesting challenges with fliers :).

I've made a new list of 750pts to play with against the corsairs - themed around a Pathfinder recon force (so lots of markerlights, possibly air support) - if/when I get the chance, I'll post that list up too for review :).