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Are flechette dischargers on a Tau vehicle useful?

Started by salamut2202, December 02, 2012, 11:01:22 AM

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Pottsey

#15
Quote from: Warmaster Russ on December 02, 2012, 06:14:41 PM
Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on December 02, 2012, 06:02:57 PM
Why should Tau have to fit a cookie cutter "works like everybody else" template? Why shouldn't they be different? The Eldar have been around for Millions of years, so why arent they able to automatically beat everyone with vastly superior technology? BEcause that isnt how the game works.

The Tau have what is now mediocre shooting, as every codex seems to have been besed on the idea that Tau are the yardstick for shooting and all new codexes should be able to outshoot them. They have sub par CC abilities. Even with 6th they struggle to get good wins against competant opponants. Once they get a new dex Flachettes will undoubtedly be different. For now they are one of 2 stand out devices next to the Railgun, which isnt as special as it was.

Old Codex, Old Rules. In a new edition it stands out.
Average shooting? Are you fething kidding me??? Your basic troops have S5 weapons, with an extra 6" range, an extra 3" rapid fire range now, the ability to remove cover saves or reduce leadership, oh, and you have a decent bloody armour save too. There aren't that many armies that can outshoot Tau as comfortably as you seem to be making out. Yes, Guard can, but guard are y'xa'uuk absurd against anyone thanks to Crudface.

yes, in the new codex Flechettes probably will be different in the new codex, but unfortunately there's a decent chance that they'll be even bloody worse than they already are the way things are going. Yes, they're one of 2 stand out items, but that's not to say that everything else is shtlk, that just means that everything else is reasonable and sensible.

I've said this before, there's a couple of point tweaks needed here and there sure, but by and large the Tau don't really need anything apart from a flier/anti-flier capability and maybe a couple of shiny new sensible weapons. Exactly what the 'Nids needed before Crudface got his hands on them. So let's hope he doesn't get the Tau. :P
Tau do have average if not below average shooting these days. The ability to lower cover saves or reduce pinning tests has a 50% chance to miss and costs 30points so it

The Man They Call Jayne

Quote from: Wargamer on December 02, 2012, 09:53:16 PM
Jayne, on the "Flechettes are fired by computers" front... why are Drones only Initiative 4? They are computers, so surely they should be Initiative 10 at the least?

So, we know Tau AI controlled units are I4. Ergo, the Flechettes should be I4 at most.

It's the difference between setting of an explosive charge when you detect movement, and coming up with a combat strategy on the fly. It is a huge difference in the real world.
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knightperson

The initiative stat doesn't matter, and as the rest of the 6th Edition rule set has shown us, neither does any common sense argument. The rules say flechette launches fire before blows are struck, therefore they do. Details of how they can react so fast are irrelevant.

The flechette launchers are NOT unique or uniquely broken within the game. The Grey Knights' cleansing flame also fires before blows are struck in close combat, and I believe it wounds every model in the entire squad, not just half of the models who get to swing. Yes, flechette launchers are dangerous to some armies, but a well designed list will be able to work around that. Daemons can use monstrous creatures or breath of chaos. Eldar of either shade can use lances. Tyranids can assault with monsters or shoot with zoanthropes. Orks can use armoured nobs, weirdboy psychic powers, and various other tools. Space Marines, as mentioned, probably don't give a shit about the flechette launchers in the first place!

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Wargamer

Grey Knights are hardly a place to go to back up your arguments, given that the Codex was so insulting to the gaming community on every level it was cart-blanche banned from our gaming club. It barely counts as a 40K Codex, it's that far out of kilter with the rest of the game.
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knightperson

Quote from: Wargamer on December 03, 2012, 12:31:58 AM
Grey Knights are hardly a place to go to back up your arguments, given that the Codex was so insulting to the gaming community on every level it was cart-blanche banned from our gaming club. It barely counts as a 40K Codex, it's that far out of kilter with the rest of the game.

I won't dispute that the Grey Knights codex is an abomination, but most of us do not have the luxury of picking and choosing which codices are allowed. At the places I play, there is no such consensus, unfortunately.

It's entirely possible that there are other examples of things that happen "before anything else", but that's the one I could think of.
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Scout Sergeant Mkoll

Quote from: Pottsey on December 02, 2012, 10:46:21 PM
Tau do have average if not below average shooting these days. The ability to lower cover saves or reduce pinning tests has a 50% chance to miss and costs 30points so it
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Quote from: Mabbz on June 03, 2011, 10:43:53 AM
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BigToof

I think the launchers are both more and less useful this edition.
More, as it makes assaults even more dubious given the whole random assault range, but less useful as there are even fewer assaults that people are making...

Best,
-BT
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The Man They Call Jayne

Except those 2 units of pathfinders MUST take Devilfish, which rapidly increases the cost. Yes you can give it to somebody be else. But what competant player allows pathfinders to run around freely? The effects of markerlights are a major concern for an enemy, so some template or heavy bolted fire will reduce them rapidly. And of course they can't move and fire properly.
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Scout Sergeant Mkoll

Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on December 03, 2012, 05:17:32 PM
Except those 2 units of pathfinders MUST take Devilfish, which rapidly increases the cost. Yes you can give it to somebody be else. But what competant player allows pathfinders to run around freely? The effects of markerlights are a major concern for an enemy, so some template or heavy bolted fire will reduce them rapidly. And of course they can't move and fire properly.
I'm going to tell you exactly what everyone who plays a gunline tell me when I point out I've no chance this edition. There is such a thing as cover. It won't help you as much as it helps my army, because you have better armour in the first place, but it will should enough. Especially if you take a "Stealth'O" or whatever they're called with the Pathfinders.
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Quote from: Mabbz on June 03, 2011, 10:43:53 AM
Mkoll wins.

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The Man They Call Jayne

I notice that I am being required to add more and more stuff to this unit to make it as bad as it seems. Now I need to add a Shas'O battlesuit, although I don't know how to make one Stealth. Only Shadowsun is a Stealth Shas'O and she cant join other units.

If Pathfinders had the Stealth Rule and didn't need a Devilfish, I would agree that they are nasty, but they are too restrictive and points hungry as they are to give space over to.

Now Tetras, they are worth taking. I have 2 and they are proving to be very effective.
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Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on December 03, 2012, 10:39:35 PM
I notice that I am being required to add more and more stuff to this unit to make it as bad as it seems. Now I need to add a Shas'O battlesuit, although I don't know how to make one Stealth. Only Shadowsun is a Stealth Shas'O and she cant join other units.

If Pathfinders had the Stealth Rule and didn't need a Devilfish, I would agree that they are nasty, but they are too restrictive and points hungry as they are to give space over to.

Now Tetras, they are worth taking. I have 2 and they are proving to be very effective.
Not at all, I'm simply pointing out that the Tau forces are nothing like as weak or mediocre as they are being made out to be by some. They do have very, very good options, some of which are unique to them. As such, I see no reason for their vehicles to receive average armour AND the best vehicle defences in the game vs both shooting and combat.

Then of course there's the pricing, which as I've pointed out is way off when you compare the effectiveness of these upgrades. Especially when you include the survivability of the respective vehicles without these upgrades in the comparison.

THAT is why I object to these upgrades, what they do, and how much they cost. If you can justify why Tau should reap ALL the benefits for their vehicles, which Dark Eldar and Orks lose theirs, bearing in mind that the latter 2 require their transports far more in order to reach combat and function as an army, then feel free to do so.
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Quote from: Mabbz on June 03, 2011, 10:43:53 AM
Mkoll wins.

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The Man They Call Jayne

Well as has been said, the Orks and DE are substantially newer codexes. The Tau aren't reaping benefits, they just have what they have always had. A total update isn't something that they are going to do in an FAQ after all.

Fluff wise, they work. The Tau don't see anything as expendable after all. DE rather get off on pain and the Orks. . .well they're Orks.

Replacing vehicles is expensive, it is easier to save them in the first place.

As has been pointed out though, the Dpod has a glaring hole in it's defences, and as you are playing against Tau you REALLY should be getting into that zone where it no longer works. Then just Melta/Lance/Whatever untill the thing is dead. The 5+ cover save there is universal for everyone.

Up close is always the Taus weakness. Get inside the Dpods field and slag the tank. Get close enough and then charge the Firewarriors/Pathfinders. Expect to lose a few units on the way.

If your running a Hellion based army, you should be faster than most opponants and able to make use of that speed to negate the advantages as much as possible.
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Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on December 04, 2012, 04:42:04 AM
Well as has been said, the Orks and DE are substantially newer codexes. The Tau aren't reaping benefits, they just have what they have always had. A total update isn't something that they are going to do in an FAQ after all.

Fluff wise, they work. The Tau don't see anything as expendable after all. DE rather get off on pain and the Orks. . .well they're Orks.

Replacing vehicles is expensive, it is easier to save them in the first place.

As has been pointed out though, the Dpod has a glaring hole in it's defences, and as you are playing against Tau you REALLY should be getting into that zone where it no longer works. Then just Melta/Lance/Whatever untill the thing is dead. The 5+ cover save there is universal for everyone.

Up close is always the Taus weakness. Get inside the Dpods field and slag the tank. Get close enough and then charge the Firewarriors/Pathfinders. Expect to lose a few units on the way.

If your running a Hellion based army, you should be faster than most opponants and able to make use of that speed to negate the advantages as much as possible.
Yes, the Disruption pod has a weakness, but that doesn't mean it's any less absurd. Hammerheads with 3+ cover saves just because they've moved 1" and are sat at the back of the board is beyond ridiculous.

As for getting within 12", that's all well and good IF you can get there. Frankly, unless you're playing Marines that's pretty damned difficult this edition. I've had multiple games with my Dark Eldar where only 1 unit has made it into combat, and they were lucky to manage that. The games were over turn 2. Hell, I've had 1 game where I didn't even manage that. 12" range is not as easy to reach as you seem to think, especially if the Tau player sets up half-sensibly.

Also, as you've just pointed out, up close is supposed to be the Tau's weakness, Flechettes go against that to the point where it's not even funny. A race that sucks up close and in combat should NOT be getting the best vehicle upgrade to deal with being attacked in combat. I know it's an old codex, but that just makes it even worse to be honest. If they're absurd for their cost and by cmparison to similar upgrades now, when combat's been nerfed and most things are cheaper then they were abhorrent previously. If the whole point of your army is that you suck in combat then you should NOT be able to wipe half a unit of Genestealers/Wyches etc before they even get to strike unless they've charged through terrain.

Oh, and with regards to the "They'll be overwatch in the next codex" theory, the only vehicles that can fire Overwatch are Walkers, which Tau don't have.
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Quote from: Mabbz on June 03, 2011, 10:43:53 AM
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Quote from: Warmaster Russ on December 04, 2012, 01:12:26 PM
Oh, and with regards to the "They'll be overwatch in the next codex" theory, the only vehicles that can fire Overwatch are Walkers, which Tau don't have.

Unless it's part of the wargear's rules...  Personally, it would be worth it's current cost if they just left it as a Wall of Death concept and left it at that.
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Wargamer

The thing is, the Flechette Discharger is a fundamentally wrong upgrade. It would be akin to, say, Imperial Guard being given Terminator Armour and then taking it away from Space Marines. The Tau are not meant to have up-close options, yet their vehicles have one of the most deadly close-combat upgrades around. The fact that it is hands down the best of these 'punish the attacker' upgrades is just salt in the wound. It needs to either have its price slammed through the roof to make it seriously unpalatable, or have its stats nerfed to hell.
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