Are Chaos players spoiled for choice?

[The Man They Call Jayne]

All bikes get a 5 or 4+ cover save when they move. That is not an issue of Chaos Bikes but all bikes in general. They are no more powerful than any other bike in the game weapon wise and you pay more for the extra toughness. Like you always have. All bike are +1 to toughness as it is, so a further plus one, while better, is at a cost.


Undercosted. Not overpowered.

[Arguleon-veq]

Undercosted is overpowered. If Marines were 8 points each, they would be overpowered. They are overpowered because you can take so many without using a large part of your points allowance.

A unit were every stat is 8 wouldnt be overpowered if it was 2000 points.

[Chicop76]

Undercosted is overpowered. If Marines were 8 points each, they would be overpowered. They are overpowered because you can take so many without using a large part of your points allowance.

A unit were every stat is 8 wouldnt be overpowered if it was 2000 points.

Which is the reason why they are over powered. You have to compare said point cost of their bikes to other bike armies. Also throw in icons they are much better than I initially thought.

I thought they was ok until i went agaimst them a few times and I went wtf due to how much they costed and that was before we realized all bikes get the +5 save for just moving.

It turns a Nurgle Lord with mark of Nurgle almost immune to instant death at a really cheap cost. Only instant death weapons like a force weapon can kill him out right, and with a +4 invulneable that means instead of needing 2 strength 10 wounds to kill him outright I now need 6.

Nurgle or Khorne bikes are very annoying to deal with in that codex. The Tzeentch is a waste unless you want them in combat and Slaneesh is ok with the extra initiative, but it is the cheap cost of bike and the icon which make them good.

[LinnScarlett]

A lot of people (not me tho) are bent out of shape over the fact that Berzerkers have a higher WS then they're counter parts (Terminators, Chosen, Raptors), and they're not fearless. Icon can fix the furious charge question. Or how plague marines can get feel no pain but they're lords can't. Its just the little things that seem get under people skin.

I did hear (still didn't read the CSM) that different factions are a tiny point stronger in different suits, and that comparing 'like to like' might show differences but that those are 'made up for' in other units' departments? I think people get bend out of shape because stuff isn't identical, and they forget to look at the bigger picture. Admittedly, this is an opinion all on hearsay so I don't know if this is the case with the CSM, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is and people are just not seeing it (or neglecting to count their chosen flavour being slightly strong in another suit over all its likes as their "+").

Undercosted is overpowered. If Marines were 8 points each, they would be overpowered. They are overpowered because you can take so many without using a large part of your points allowance.

A unit were every stat is 8 wouldnt be overpowered if it was 2000 points.

I disagree. Undercosted means something is slightly cheap, without being a 'complete' game breaker for the opponent by being an unstoppable force at its term level. Overpowered simply breaks the game because on its term level there is nothing you can even begin to do about it.

Sure, one blends into the extreme of the other, but in a normal sense to me its two different things. It's all in the nuances.

[Chicop76]

Undercosted is overpowered. If Marines were 8 points each, they would be overpowered. They are overpowered because you can take so many without using a large part of your points allowance.

A unit were every stat is 8 wouldnt be overpowered if it was 2000 points.

I disagree. Undercosted means something is slightly cheap, without being a 'complete' game breaker for the opponent by being an unstoppable force at its term level. Overpowered simply breaks the game because on its term level there is nothing you can even begin to do about it.

Sure, one blends into the extreme of the other, but in a normal sense to me its two different things. It's all in the nuances.
[/quote]

In my gamming experance nothing is over powered in 40k. There is always something that can beat what ever unit someone decides to through out. The only unit I can recall that fits that category was the seer councils of old, even than they could be beaten.

Now if for example I run a toughness 8 Wraithlord against all strength 3 guardsman than that would fit what some say is ovepowered. the sad thing is the Wraithlord is not overpowered, may be better than some units, but not overpowered.

The problem lies in producing a balance list with all the armies and tricks in mind. If you do not do this than you will think that unbeatable unit is over pwoered.

Than again genestealers fom 3rd and 4th was pretty bad. I never got wiped from them, but I wiped 1k marines with only 250 points worth of stealers before. It was a 4 way game which i split 3 ways and was able to beat 3k pts with 1k points. not to mention they quickly called a truce to jump me.

that being said I never fell prey to the unit because I ran them and knew how they played, also I made sure it was rather hard to consolidate into my next unit after combat.

I like the term under costed, due to some things are simply under costed compared to other units in the game and even in their own book.

A very good example is the Flamer of Tzeentch, before they changed it from last edition it was under costed for what it does. x points for the breath of chaos is a fair and balanced cost, but 5 points for a 2 hit jetpack tougness and strength four model with a +4 invulnerable save is very under costed. What other army can get that for only 5 points. Not to mention a three hit strength four ap four wean that uses a marine bs thrown in for free. Than 6th come a long and now the unit is 7 points cheaper than the actual upgrade of the weapon, so cheap in fact I almost can run five of them instead of three, and throw in an extra wound, plus lower their invulnerable save to +4 for balance.

However Flamers of tzeentch is not over powered simply due to the many things that can go wrong to get them to where you need them. I would say Daemons weakness in armies that can put on a ton of wounds and have many models. Aginst armies of 50-80 models they do really well, but against 200+ models they start to have problems. Which the flamers fall pray to weapons like flamers.

That being said I would say Flamers of tzeentch is a bit cheezy to use and are very under  coasted for what they do. keep in mind not to many Daemon units are cheap and a few are very over coasted. Now if the whole army was like this who would play against something like that. However it's one of a few units that sing i am the big block of cheese in the army. Unlike Grey Knights who get strength seven assault cannons army wide at 1/4 of the cost of an assault cannon and can fire as an assault weapon on top of that.

The bikes are cheezy because of the cost and the amount that can be thrown upon you.

is the bike over powered? No.

Are they cheezy and under costed? Yes.

[The Man They Call Jayne]

Bikers, undercosted.
Vendettas, Overpowered AND Undercosted.

Things that are undercosted arent always over powered, but things that are overpowered are usually undercosted aswell, but BECAUSE of their power level.

[Chicop76]

Bikers, undercosted.
Vendettas, Overpowered AND Undercosted.

Things that are undercosted arent always over powered, but things that are overpowered are usually undercosted aswell, but BECAUSE of their power level.

Vendettas are a good example. Although armour 12 is not hard to crack if you have flyers as well, or anti-air units. How ever I just ignore flyers most of my games and found i actually do much better when I do.

That being said if you take no fortifications and strait tau Vendettas could be a night mare and your suits turn into a waste of points in games like that, which is why people take guard allies.

In 6th I can say that model can be looked upon as being over powered for what it does and how hard for you to get rid of it.

[LinnScarlett]

Bikers, undercosted.
Vendettas, Overpowered AND Undercosted.

Things that are undercosted arent always over powered, but things that are overpowered are usually undercosted aswell, but BECAUSE of their power level.

Vendettas are a good example. Although armour 12 is not hard to crack if you have flyers as well, or anti-air units. How ever I just ignore flyers most of my games and found i actually do much better when I do.

That being said if you take no fortifications and strait tau Vendettas could be a night mare and your suits turn into a waste of points in games like that, which is why people take guard allies.

In 6th I can say that model can be looked upon as being over powered for what it does and how hard for you to get rid of it.

Hmmmmm.... Hydra's?

[The Man They Call Jayne]

When the only good counter for a unit is in the same army that unit is in it says alot about balance.

But just look at the thing. Every weakness the guard have, this things takes a throws out the window. Slow Vehicles? Heres a fast skimmer and now a flyer. Poor accuracy? Everything is Twin Linked! Flyers are fragile? Not you!

I wouldnt complain so much if it didnt have troop capacity an Heavy Bolter options, a dedicated gunship, but there is nothing this thing cant do and do well. With needing 6s to hit it on top of how powerful it was for (i think) around 140 points? And of course it is the best anti Flyer unit out there aswell. And they come in 3s.

It is the bench mark and yardstick by which all broken overpowered undercosted units should be measured.

[/rant]

But yes, even with some of the complaints I have heard about the Heldrake, the Chaos dex has nothing that is inherently broken.

[Narric]

Out of curiousity, what can the Heldrake do? I'm gaurantied to buy one for the simple Dragon-esque appearence (though every model I've seen IRL doesn't do the imagry justice), but what use is it in game?

[The Man They Call Jayne]

Its a flyer, obviously. Has 2 weapon options, Some anti armour with a Hades or anti Infantry with a Baleflamer. Also has Vector Strike which allowed it to attack like a Flying MC. And the standard Deamon Engine rules from the Forge/Maulerfiend. It is a very good unit for hunting down other flyers because you can attack them in the air with multiple CC hits. It could be called cheap, but untill we see more fliers and what they can do I will reserve judgement on that.

[Narric]

Ooh, that sounds juicy. I think my Khorne army will have a Draconic Ace-in-the-hole C:<

[Chicop76]

Out of curiousity, what can the Heldrake do? I'm gaurantied to buy one for the simple Dragon-esque appearence (though every model I've seen IRL doesn't do the imagry justice), but what use is it in game?

4 autto cannon shots, or it can have a hellhound weapon that is ap 3 which makes marines feel very toasty.

It's very anti-MEQ. I don't run marines anyway and rather run horder armies who just ignore it without taking major losses.

When the only good counter for a unit is in the same army that unit is in it says alot about balance.

But just look at the thing. Every weakness the guard have, this things takes a throws out the window. Slow Vehicles? Heres a fast skimmer and now a flyer. Poor accuracy? Everything is Twin Linked! Flyers are fragile? Not you!

I wouldnt complain so much if it didnt have troop capacity an Heavy Bolter options, a dedicated gunship, but there is nothing this thing cant do and do well. With needing 6s to hit it on top of how powerful it was for (i think) around 140 points? And of course it is the best anti Flyer unit out there aswell. And they come in 3s.

It is the bench mark and yardstick by which all broken overpowered undercosted units should be measured.

[/rant]

But yes, even with some of the complaints I have heard about the Heldrake, the Chaos dex has nothing that is inherently broken.

Yeah. tha is why i would go with it being overpowered. The only overpowered unit in the game. It is said you have to take a cheesy under costed unit in the same codex to counter anouther cheesy under costed unit in the same book.

My daemons do not mind since I can still bolt them out of the sky with my flyers. Good luck killing Fate Weaver, unless they have that stupid psyker battle squad that can make him leadership two.

Nids however just call it a game when they see 6 vendettas with heavy bolters.

[Irisado]

Going back to some of the earlier points in this thread, the Chaos codex has been complained about incessantly on Warseer, so it's not just DeviantArt, but it seems to have more positively received on the other fora I regularly participate in, so I put that down to the usual syndrome of moaning which infects the 40K section of Warseer.

Regarding the Thousand Sons, what I was referring to was the fact that the interaction with the Sorcerer leading them is still rather disappointing.  For such a magical unit, the fact that the stick to modifying their Boltgun ammunition just seems to be a bit lacklustre.  Quite why they couldn't have given the Sorcerers the power to infuse them with magical energies to allow them to use a range of magical weapons to make them more versatile, rather than just MEQ killers is a bit beyond me.

On the point of the Chaos codex versus other codices.  First, I'm glad that it's not overpowered.  Second, I don't see much value in complaining about it being below par in comparison with the Grey Knights codex.  Remember that the Chaos codex is the first sixth edition codex, so the others are all going to change, and also consider that parts of the Grey Knights codex are overpowered, and are likely to be toned down when their book is re-written.

[LinnScarlett]

... so I put that down to the usual syndrome of moaning which infects the 40K section of Warseer.

Whiners are going to whine, unfortunately. It seems to be some sort of benchmark to new stuff these days - there has to be something to moan about it! There has to! There has to! OMG the models come unpainted! ./whine



Oh, really Isi? They didn't do anything 'fun and giggles' with the Sorcerer? That's suck. *bit turned down*
I was thinking of modelling the grey past of my Ultrawolves (who may have been a Thousand Sons root, long story, hehe) but with a bland Sorcerer that just became a lot less enticing a prospect. :/

When the only good counter for a unit is in the same army that unit is in it says alot about balance.

Right! I didn't have my brain on 'On' last night, clearly...
Admittedly, being a sucker for fluffy armies my Catachan don't really do fliers, but I am dragging along Hydras in case there's an airspam. It is cheesy, yea, but IG against IG it's also pretty fun trying to pinata the hell out of each other I think. Well, if you have a sporty friend to do it with, of course.