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Balancing Unique Character rules

Started by Waaaghpower, December 19, 2012, 03:28:24 AM

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Waaaghpower

So, based on another discussion and some thought about unique characters, I hereby offer an extra rule for Unique characters that will hopefully make them less OP:
Unique Characters can only be added to games with point values equaling their value times ten. (I'd like to go through and write specific values for each character, but that'd take too long so that's a general approximation.) Unique who are upgrades to other units add 600 points when determining this. (So, a 85-points-to-upgrade model requires a 1450 point game.)
If two Unique Characters are taken, then the value must equal both of their points combined. (If you take Ghazkull Thraka and Mad Dok Grotsnik, for example, you'll need to be in a 3900 point game.)

(I'd like to also add some rules that make their fluff more accurate, so you won't have legendary warriors walking onto the battlefield and getting chewed up immediately by enemy firepower, ruining the feel of badass warrior.)
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That rule looks pretty good so far; it'll be interesting to see what happens when others test out the mechanic with characters from different races.
Quote from: Narric on August 15, 2011, 12:09:07 AM
You make it sound like it could be wearing a top-hat and monocle, but for the sole reason it'd have been painted by Gareth that it would still look terrifying........I have to say I agree. XD
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The Man They Call Jayne

That does seem a bit restrictive on some of the more expecsive characters. It reduces Abaddon to almost Apocalypse only usage, and Ahriman to only the biggest games, where his fluff would allow him to be used in a considerable smaller game as part of a raiding party seeking Magickal Lore.

It also means where you have special chatracters that are considerably under priced (Im looking at you Grey Knights and Blood Angels) you will have power houses on the field and the other person will not.

What about a limit of 1 Special character per 1500 points. Given as the more expensive characters could easily make up 500 points of your army together, this mean you can either cripple yourself wil a low model count in exchange for a few special abilities, or you just take a homemade Lord/Captain/Farseer/Whatever.

I like the idea of limiting them. It stops the game turning into hero hammer, but with such a huge variation in cost and effectivness, we have to be careful how we limit them. Is a single IG Special the same standard as a Necron Special for example?

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Waaaghpower

I'd say one character per 2000 points, and no characters in games under 1000 if I were to play it. (Then again, feel free to change it however you'd like if you use it. It's a house rule, after all.)
As for making them less hyper-vulnerable...
Maybe something about better 'Look Out, Sirs' but with a penalty where (Due to how awesome and glorified they are) minions have to save them if at all possible (to represent the awe of working with someone so powerful, you can't let them get hurt!)
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Scout Sergeant Mkoll

The trouble with this is that some people don't take special characters because they're game changing, but because they like them. I personally take Baron Sathonyx because his fluff is awesome and I love the idea of a Hellion heavy army. (I wanted to find a 28mm scale Green Goblin model to lead my force :P )

By this logic, I can't run my army in a 1000pt game, it has to be 1050+, meaning I can't play below that with a legal list. Furthermore, as Jayne pointed out, another issue is different races. The Dark Eldar special characters, or example, are much more likely to be in small games as they seek to rise through the ranks of Commoragh's society and maintain their standing there by looting and capturing slaves, whereas First Captains and Chapter Masters etc would only take to the field for much larger engagements. Another example is Old One Eye, unless the Tyranid player is running an early Behemoth fleet he should only appear in small games as he's stranded with very limited support (unless they're claiming the Hive Mind made another).

It's a nice idea, and I would like to see more armies without special characters, but unfortunately it's not really likely because the special characters provide so much more for each army and several of them unlock specific army builds.
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Quote from: Mabbz on June 03, 2011, 10:43:53 AM
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Chicop76

I agree and disagree.

Personally I do not like running special characters over regular characters, but some armies you are either forced to take them, or they run better in a way that make the unit to actually work they way you wanted.

Lord of Change vs Fateweaver: if the LoC upgrades like legion an breath didn't cost so much to where you are basically paying for Fateweaver, but getting less abilities is crazy. I think in this case unless the normal model abilities come close to the special than they should be similar in cost. The problem in this case you wind up taking a LoC with minimum upgrades. If you want more upgrades you just take Fateweaver who gets some powers for free and the 6" re roll. I get Fateweaver more due his bilities than his re roll aura most of the time. If my LoC hits 330 points why bother playing with that when you can fall back to the weaver.

Cortez is another example. Thanks to the update if you ran inquistoral troopes you are forced to take Cortez to keep your army somewhat. I personally like a list with have grey knights more than all grey knights. I feel with the list I want to play I am force to take Cortez. It is not the same as trying to run Purifiers or Paladins as troops. Those other two options you can still take as many as 3 in eltes and you can still make them scoring with a grand master. But in the inquisitoral troop case you can only run one per inquisitor unless you run Cortez.

Space Wolves is a good example of you can create an awesome Independant Character and do not feel the need to run a special character. The only special that I would want to run is Canis since he allows wolves as troops. Other than that I like the codex cause of the options and the uniqueness you can give your models.

Tyranids for example is both. Swarmlord and Doom are models you do not have to run. You can make your Tyrant although it would cost more a better force multiplier than a Swarmlord would. I run the Swarmlord, but I also switch out between the tyrant and lord. If I want a beat stick I get the lord. If I want a force multiplier I get a Tyrant. I never ran the Doom so I want justify having to use it. The only character I run a lot is the deathleaper. The deathleaper is capable of lowering leadership which is great anti Fateweaver and hoods. With deny the witch and the hood nerf I feel less pressed to field the leaper.

The only armies I think special characters depending on the army where they actually helpful, and you really do not have an ulternate option in taking someone else.
Daemons
Sisters of Battle
Grey Knights
Tyranids

The other armies out there can still like say use an all bike army if they field a captain on a bike instead of having to field khan. The reason I mentioned those 4 armies is that with some Daemons like the changling, Masque, etc is that you need to survive 1st turn wipe out and you need all the tools you can get. Daemons is a very hard army to play against and I can justify even using Fateweaver.

Sisters your cannoness just blantly suck a big suck. Probably the worst HQ in the entire game. Your normal HQ options suck. I find myself using St. Celstine since the update way more than I ever used her, before the update I didn't run her at all. My cannoness was badass that was on par or even better than an Archon. Now they suck the great suck and I feel that either I play a really bad hq choice or take a special chracter, so I take the two specials over the great suck.

Grey Knights only one I can justify is Cortez. The other options out there you can still make really good upgrade and independant characters with out specials.

Tyranids is in there because of the Deathleaper. Other than that I do not justify the other models.

The other armies out there they really can't justify the special character choice or that they must take it.

O'Shova Tau I can see in the last codex for higher ws and int Tau and Aun'shi. Etherals impact your army, so much and Aun'shi was the only Etheral you can actually live through combat. With him gone and the +5 upgrade gone I do not see the need for the specials. O' Shova nerf your entire army to take more non scoring expensive suits in a huge squad and for. Strength 5 power
The new etheral suck a good suck which competes agaist the Canoness as a great sucking model. However due to rule changes he is not as bad as he use to be. Preferred enemy now actually helps Tau although not really worth the points you invest in that model, which is the offical worst special character. Shadowsun is two stealth suits with meltas and not worth taking due t 6 stealth suits with melta guns are more attractive. O'Shova would be the best choice, but he nerfs your entire army.

Thiniking about it more I would say Tau specials actually help your opponent. If you want to field them than go ahead. I think taking the space pope is enough penalty already. Adding more to it is a bit messed up.

Necrons, Dark Eldar, all other Marine armies, Orcs, Chaos Space Marines, Eldar would easily fall under such restrictions. Since those special tend to be blocks of the almighty cheese. These armies can do well with out them and can be out right devestating with them.

I just want to mention Eldrad though. I never ran Eldrad in the prior codex cause I could had ran 10 farseers. Now since I can only run 2 and if I decide to Autarch, or Avatar of Khaine. That leaves me with only one and since I am used to running 3-5 in the past Eldrad almost makes up for the small # of Farseers I am allowed to take. Also The Avatar of Khaine is like the Tyranid specials. There is more than one Avatar or Swarmlord out there, so seeing them fielded isn't like Abbaddon who happens to be in every chaos space marine battle.

I do feel that some special characters like Fateweaver, Abbadon, Eldrad really shouldn't be in every fight. If you say fix the LoC it would fix the abundance of Fateweaver using players who feal like the only option is to use the weaver. Abbadon however is hardly justifibale and Eldrad is like inbetwwen justifiable. Pheonix Lord proably would be a better example of WTF why is he there type situation.


The Man They Call Jayne

Certain Characters, especially chaos ones, are justifiable in that they are ALWAYS looking for a fight so they can earn more favour with the Dark Gods. Abbadon being in a 750 point raiding party is pushing it a bit sure, but he is very costly and you are hamstringing yourself by taking him in an army so small because your troops choices are going to be small and under equipped.
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Wargamer

My view of this is very simple:

They are SPECIAL characters. That means they are reserved for SPECIAL games only. I do not believe for one moment the old guard intended people to be bringing Marneus Calgar to the table every game.

The same thing happened with super-heavies. The likes of the Baneblade were meant for special games, where it could be a focal point for a huge, memorable match. Now, half the people playing the game want to be able to use it every match without even bothering why Tau or Tyranids would have one...
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Quote from: Wargamer on January 01, 2013, 12:06:25 AM
My view of this is very simple:

They are SPECIAL characters. That means they are reserved for SPECIAL games only. I do not believe for one moment the old guard intended people to be bringing Marneus Calgar to the table every game.

The same thing happened with super-heavies. The likes of the Baneblade were meant for special games, where it could be a focal point for a huge, memorable match. Now, half the people playing the game want to be able to use it every match without even bothering why Tau or Tyranids would have one...
For the most part I agree. However there are exception. Baron Sathonyx, as I've pointed out, is the only reason my Dark Eldar list is legal. Wazdakka allows Ork bike lists etc etc. Some of the special characters are taken for reasons outside of the cheese factor, they're taken because they allow cool concepts to become reality on the tabletop.

Admittedly these are few and far between, but they are there and need to be taken into consideration. As does the race factor I mentioned earlier. Lilith will go into battle far more often than Calgar because Commoragh demands proof of skills FAR more than Macragge ever has.
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Quote from: Mabbz on June 03, 2011, 10:43:53 AM
Mkoll wins.

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