Author Topic: Covert Operations (a kill team remake)  (Read 14906 times)

Offline Mabbz

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Covert Operations (a kill team remake)
« on: December 19, 2012, 09:02:56 PM »
Well, I'm finally uploading it.

Back in the 4th edition rulebook was a set of rules called kill team. They featured a small group of commandos trying to sneak past the guards to complete whatever objective they had. It was a good idea, but I always felt that there was so much more that could have been done with it. So shortly after 5th Ed came out, I started rewriting the kill team rule into an expansion similar to Planetstrike. Every few months I would remember it and make a alterations, or add a new page. And now, I've got it to a point where I'm willing to post it here.

These rule are by no means final, so please, post anything you think could improve them. If there's something that could be added, or should be removed or changed please let me know.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 11:29:02 PM by Mabbz »

Offline Narric

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Re: Kill Team Revamped
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2012, 10:19:58 PM »
I'm going to download it, and I'll give you my thoughts shortly.

Here is some wroding errors and changes I'll point out:

Quote from: Alertness, P2
Sentries have a spotting distance which is equal to it's Initiative plus the number klaxon counters the Controlling player has accrued

This seems completely badly worded to me
Quote from: Independence, P3
Real soldiers don
« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 12:30:22 PM by Narric of 4th Sphere »

Offline Mabbz

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Re: Kill Team Revamped
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2012, 02:06:16 PM »
I'm going to download it, and I'll give you my thoughts shortly.

Here is some wording errors and changes I'll point out:

Quote from: Alertness, P2
Sentries have a spotting distance which is equal to it's Initiative plus the number klaxon counters the Controlling player has accrued

This seems completely badly worded to me
Do you have any suggestions about rewording it? I've never been great at wording.

Quote
Reference to this "Boss" doesn't make sense, and should have been explained prior to the Advanced Rules.

Narrative points are something else tha in my opinion should be mentioned later. I like the rules, but perhaps Kill Team/Defender List building should comes first.
You're right, I actually meant to rearrange several of the pages but I forgot.

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Quote from: Shot-of-a-lifetime, P4
The model may only fire one weapon this turn
Considering you havent stated previously that models can fire more then one weapon per turn, this is redundant.
A little, yes, but some models can fire more than one weapon (monstrous creatures, tau with multi trackers etc.). I'll probably remove that line though.

Quote
Quote from: Still not Dead
Use when a kill team model or boss dies. Instead of removing it, place it on its side. At the start of his next turn, he gets back up with one wound remaining, and may act as normal. At the end of the turn, roll a die. On a 4+ he stays alive for another turn; otherwise he dies. After the 2nd turn he automatically dies and. A model may only use this action once.
"Automaticaly dies and" .. And what?!

Alt wording:
The model dies (with no saves or further Heroic Actions permitted) after the second turn they survive, after using the "still not Dead" Heroic Action.
This Action may only be used once per model.
And... Editing typo :-[

I will fix that.

Quote
Quote from: Misdirection
Kill team members only. Use at the start of the defender

Offline Narric

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Re: Kill Team Revamped
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2012, 02:42:46 PM »
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You're right, I actually meant to rearrange several of the pages but I forgot.
That understandable.

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A little, yes, but some models can fire more than one weapon (monstrous creatures, tau with multi trackers etc.). I'll probably remove that line though.
Ah, I forgot about that.

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And... Editing typo :-[

I will fix that.
Thought so :P Thought I'd ask incase something important was missed.

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It's more representing blind luck making them look skilled than new powers as the plot demands. I might change it, I haven't decided.
Might be something to try in testing, mayhaps?

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It's to prevent the annoying people that try to take an enormous blob squad for a kill team. I've seen it before, it surprisingly effective.
Hmm. Well I guess I can agree with you I've had to face two vindicators in a 600pt game -_-

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I meant to remove this as I have a better explanation on the previous page.
Oh balls, i must have misread that section then ^^;;

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I think that may have been a throwback to the old rules. I'll remove it.
I've found you can make a 4 model Tau Kill Team, but you potentially grant a Narrative point to the opponent for it. (for ignoring two other rules)

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I honestly can't remember why I have that. I think it may be another throwback :-[
These throwback rules are a right bitch XD

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This rule is meant to be broken. While you can take models from different units, it can vastly improve the KT effectiveness. This rule makes you have to think about whether or not taking models from 5 different units is really worth it.
Ah clever and sneaky, however, my second Tau KT is potentially effective, and didn't break this rule, or any others, enough to grant a Narrative point ;)

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Quote
- No psychic powers.
This can easily be read as "No Grey Knight Kill Teams."
I think it should be a core rule of "Only one model with the Psyker special Rule may use Psychic Powers in the army." This means that a Grey Knight Kill Team is allowe, but the entire KT can't use its powers.
That can be broken, so the more relevant (major) rule is "no more than 2 psykers". Another alternative would involve saying that brotherhoods of psyker have to stay together and only count as one psyker. I'm not sure.
Its definately tricky ground. Maybe some additional rules could/should be made so it works.

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As a tau and guard player, I tend to forget to take some other armies into account. I need to think more about the restrictions on psykers.
ence why its good to get ideas like this out into the open :D You'll get feedback for things you hand't considered.

Quote
Quote
- No bikes or jetbikes.
If the Defender has Vehicles, then chances are any Bikes in the Kill Team will have their tick-over engine noise hidden. You're actually loosing yourself another detection point, as you're more likely to hear a bike sooner, then you are to see the biker.
Jetbikes are  near enough Eldar exclusive, and are most likely excellent for Kill Teams as they can be in, out and complete their objective, possibly before any alarm is raised.
My issue is that they could easily be horribly overpowered. I'm not sure how to fix that though.
If you allow them, you could limit the number. Considering three seems to be the minimum for any Bike/Jetbike squad, you could enforce that as an Unbreakable rule.

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Again, I hated players that took 10 identical tactical marines. They break practically no rules (so they offer little in the way of narrative points as compensation) and are actually very effective.
So essentially I'd have the right the wargear down of each individual model? Sounds alright. Thing with Vanilla Tactical Marines, is that for 160pts IIRC they get a Flamer and Missile Launcher for free.

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Quote
The Major Rules seem ok, but Pts limit will be a limit enough on Vehicles.
Probably, but a guard player could theoretically take quite a lot of sentinels. This is most likely unnecessary, but I put it in just in case.
Oh, yes, Hadn't thought of that, again XD

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Quote
I love the scenarios. I'm sure with some playtesting they can be fine-tuned.
I've only playtested one (assasinate) and I made several changes just based on that. I intend to test the rest when I get the chance, but if you test them please let me know.
I've got Vassal Updated, so I might find some time to test out all three at some point.

Hope I've helped in some way ^_^

Offline Mabbz

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Re: Kill Team Revamped
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2012, 03:24:17 PM »
Quote
It's more representing blind luck making them look skilled than new powers as the plot demands. I might change it, I haven't decided.
Might be something to try in testing, mayhaps?
Always a good idea.

Quote
Quote
It's to prevent the annoying people that try to take an enormous blob squad for a kill team. I've seen it before, it surprisingly effective.
Hmm. Well I guess I can agree with you I've had to face two vindicators in a 600pt game -_-
Indeed. I play against poweregamers to often to not start making rules like this.

Quote
I think that may have been a throwback to the old rules. I'll remove it.
I've found you can make a 4 model Tau Kill Team, but you potentially grant a Narrative point to the opponent for it. (for ignoring two other rules)[/quote]There's no reason to worry much about granting narrative points, they're useful but hopefully not game changing.

Quote
Quote
This rule is meant to be broken. While you can take models from different units, it can vastly improve the KT effectiveness. This rule makes you have to think about whether or not taking models from 5 different units is really worth it.
Ah clever and sneaky, however, my second Tau KT is potentially effective, and didn't break this rule, or any others, enough to grant a Narrative point ;)
I might make a separate thread for people to write up kill teams and defence forces. It could be useful to see what people come up with.

Quote
Quote
Quote
- No psychic powers.
This can easily be read as "No Grey Knight Kill Teams."
I think it should be a core rule of "Only one model with the Psyker special Rule may use Psychic Powers in the army." This means that a Grey Knight Kill Team is allowe, but the entire KT can't use its powers.
That can be broken, so the more relevant (major) rule is "no more than 2 psykers". Another alternative would involve saying that brotherhoods of psyker have to stay together and only count as one psyker. I'm not sure.
Its definately tricky ground. Maybe some additional rules could/should be made so it works.

Quote
As a tau and guard player, I tend to forget to take some other armies into account. I need to think more about the restrictions on psykers.
hence why its good to get ideas like this out into the open :D You'll get feedback for things you hadn't considered.
Hence why it is in the open. This seems to be the biggest sticking point so far, and I welcome any ideas.

Quote
Quote
Quote
- No bikes or jetbikes.
If the Defender has Vehicles, then chances are any Bikes in the Kill Team will have their tick-over engine noise hidden. You're actually loosing yourself another detection point, as you're more likely to hear a bike sooner, then you are to see the biker.
Jetbikes are  near enough Eldar exclusive, and are most likely excellent for Kill Teams as they can be in, out and complete their objective, possibly before any alarm is raised.
My issue is that they could easily be horribly overpowered. I'm not sure how to fix that though.
If you allow them, you could limit the number. Considering three seems to be the minimum for any Bike/Jetbike squad, you could enforce that as an Unbreakable rule.
That would work. I'll change it.

Quote
Quote
Again, I hated players that took 10 identical tactical marines. They break practically no rules (so they offer little in the way of narrative points as compensation) and are actually very effective.
So essentially I'd have the right the wargear down of each individual model? Sounds alright. Thing with Vanilla Tactical Marines, is that for 160pts IIRC they get a Flamer and Missile Launcher for free.
I don't really like that rule, but I want to stop people from having boring but overpowered kill teams. Rule 0 is very important when using these rules.

Quote
Quote
Quote
I love the scenarios. I'm sure with some playtesting they can be fine-tuned.
I've only playtested one (assasinate) and I made several changes just based on that. I intend to test the rest when I get the chance, but if you test them please let me know.
I've got Vassal Updated, so I might find some time to test out all three at some point.
I've never been able to get Vassal to work. I have been considering running an RP using these rules though. It won't be until the new year though.

Quote
Hope I've helped in some way ^_^
I'm going to make at least half a dozen improvements thanks to you. I'd call that helpful ;)

Thanks.

Offline Mabbz

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Re: Kill Team Revamped
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2012, 05:53:15 PM »
V1.1 is up.

Changes:
- significant layout changes. Contents page added
- various changes to force creation rules
- rules for corpses added
- boss renamed to base leader
- various typos fixed

Offline Narric

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Re: Kill Team Revamped
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2013, 11:03:52 AM »
Was gonna leave this as a comment on DA, but figured you'd get it quicker if I reply here :P

On my current read-through, I can't help but feel it needs some padding from cover to the start of the rules. Maybe some sort of explanation of what Kill Team (this game variation that is) is, and maybe why it would be an interesting diversion from regular 40k. IDK, something for you to think about?

The section titled "Sentries" feels it would be better if started as a description of playing the Defender. For Kill Team Specific rules, start it off as describing playing as a Kill Team leader. Basically, make players understand what each side means, and <i>then</i> go into details such as what does & doesn't count as a "Sentry" unit, and so on.

Onto Sentry units specifically. Saying "any vehicles must be inconspicuous" is not a very clear ruling. Being specific would help here, such as saying "No Sentry vehicle may have a total Armour Value higher than 33." This works well, as anybody who has played 40min 40k will know what that gives them in terms of options. adding an additional rule of "No armour facing may be higher than 12" also adds a layer of clarity/specificity, giving beardy players less room for loop-hole abuse.

There is one weapon type I believ you overlooked in regard to the "Klaxon Counters." the humble Sniper Rifle. Even in 40k, it can be assumed sniper rifles would be silenced, and so in Kill Team they would be harder to hear. This can easily be represented by a re-roll of a successful "Klaxon roll." It can be said the Sentry has shrugged it off as distant gun-fire from a local conflict.

Bike Engines, Jump Pack and Jetpack thrusters are pretty distinct, and something a good sentry would be trained to keep an ear out for. I'd say if any of the above is used within 12" of a Sentry, all Defender units are activated.

One thing i think needs tweaking is "Alertness." Guardsmen are I3 iims, but we could easily assume he can see further than that. Making 6" a minimum spotting distance allows the Defender to be strategic with his placement.

I find it weird a sentry who isn't aware would not be able to react quick enough to get one shot off. Allow an unalert sentry overwatch, but obviously keep the no-shooting & no-assault parts.

I feel bodies shouldn't be moved. It makes more sense and is less straining to simply hide the body. Often just covering the body in a tarp in an industrial area, or covering with leaves in a foresty area. get my drift?

I feel you should put some restrictions on the base leader. I refer again to 40min 40k. the following rules make for excellent restrictions at low point games for leaders: no 2+ saves, no more than 3 wounds per model, No Special Characters. Simple enough.

I think Sounding the alarm isa little slow. If a base alarm has been raised, why would the sentries and soldiers stand around? Why not roll a D6, and the alarm is raised if the score is less than the total Klaxon counters?

Independence is easily a Kill Team Game specific rule. However, I disagree with the Defender side. In my mind, it would be more reasonable if unaware sentries became alert if an alert sentry comes into spotting distance. Would you just walk past a soldier who is pointing his gun out into the darkness if you're supposed to be defending the location?

I'd need a real game of Kill Team before having a decent say about the limits of force selection.

Thats all I have to say right now ^_^ Hope it helps.

I'm working most of tomorrow, but maybe we could play a game of Kill Team tomorrow after 7pm? I'll make a KT list, and a Defense list, and we can roll off for who is what.

Offline Mabbz

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Re: Kill Team Revamped
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2013, 09:25:47 PM »
Sorry it took so long to reply to this, I've been surprisingly busy these last two days, I haven't been able to post a full response.

For the benefit of people that aren't secretly spying on me and Narric, this is actually an excerpt from a PM conversation. And we did have that game, which highlighted a few more issues. I am in the process of making the relevant changes, but here's a rundown:

Definite changes/additions:
- Introduction page.
- General layout changes to make things easier to find.
- Pistol and Sniper weapons only add klaxon counters on a roll of 6.
- Bodies can't be moved, instead a model can spend a turn hiding them, removing them from play.
- When the alarm is sounded, sentries become aware if they pass a leadership test, rather than a simple d6.
- Kill Team player has a minimum of 5 Narrative Points rather than three.

Possible changes/additions:
- Certain bits of re-wording, such as Narric's comment about inconspicuous vehicles.
- Template weapons add a Klaxon Counter on a 4+, since flamers aren't exactly subtle.
- Some kind of alteration additional penalty to Bikes, Jetbikes and Jump Infantry (maybe they could be spotted at double distance in any turn they are used?).
- Turn limit.
- Something to allow sentries the possiblity of overwatch.
- When the alarm is raised, failing the aforementioned leadership test results in either in the unit falling back toward the central objective or being pinned.

I can't remember any other issue we came up with, so that's all for now unless someone think I missed something. Also, Narric, I won't have time to write up a battle report for our game. If you want to write one, that'd be great; if not I'll just summarise it here.

One final thing. If anyone want's to write a little snippet of fluff that could be included in the book that'd be greatly appreciated. I'm thinking along the lines of those small story boxes that are scattered throughout the various rulebooks.

Offline Narric

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Re: Kill Team Revamped
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2013, 10:31:41 PM »
The Bat-rep is already written. Its just schedules for wednesday on my blog. I'll like you via Facebook and here when it gets posted ;)

I did have a few more dieas, which I've written down in notepad. I'll paste them in for you to see.

I felt that someone will probably use the rulebook or codex traits, so i thought I'd come up with some that would hopefully work best for Kill Team, making up a couple and pinching some simpler ones from the rulebook.

I did the same for the "Kill Master" :P
Spoiler: Kill Master Traits (click to show/hide)

Lastly was an option for non-standard equipment
Spoiler: Kill Team Upgrades (click to show/hide)

Hope I've gien you some extra brain-fuel, even if it is something you may have considered before.

Offline Mabbz

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Re: Kill Team Revamped
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2013, 11:12:34 PM »
You know, I never once considered warlord traits for this? Good spot. I don't like the name kill master though. I'll probably go with Team Leader; I think it sounds better, and it provides a nice symmetry with Base Leader.

Here's a few more traits for consideration, possibly to replace the ones from the main rulebook:
Spoiler: New traits (click to show/hide)

As for the upgrades, something similar existed in the original kill team rules. I basically decided to replace them with narrative points and special terrain features, as I felt that most codexi had enough options available to render special equipment mostly unnecessary. Some of your ideas are fine, but I don't think there's enough to warrant another section for upgrades. As for what you've got...

Night vision goggles: fair enough. I personally would never use them, but they are a sensible addition.

Silenced Weaponry: again, fair enough.

Tranquilizer Rounds: I can't currently see any advantages to these rules. If you said that tranquilizers are automatically silenced then maybe.

Medipacks: I'd be more likely to add a medi-station as a terrain piece to be honest.

Non standard equipment: most armies already have units that can take similar weapons to all of these. I don't really see the point.

Offline Narric

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Re: Kill Team Revamped
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2013, 12:53:51 PM »
I like those Triats, they're good traits. :)

I've never seen the original Kill Team rules, so its cool to know I was thinkiing in the right direction :) Hadn't considered making Tranqs automatically Silent. IT would obviously double their cost. My idea for them came from the MGS games, where I constantly Tranq guards and sentries to sneak past them. I often did this well enough to clear an objective area without tripping any alarms.

A Medi-station does sound more likely. Sort'of surprised you didn't include them to begin with, looking at you rules again.

The non-standard equipment was mostly me just throwing an idea out there. It also has the disadvantage of not being that clear of what is replaced on the model.

Looking forward to seeing the next version. However, it would be cool if we could have another game, with me as the defender this time. Best you get experience from both sides of the board afterall ;)

Offline Mabbz

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Re: Kill Team Revamped
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2013, 01:57:58 PM »
The original rules were in the 4th ed rulebook. I've added quite a lot.

The tranq rules you wrote currently have no advantages over just shooting to kill, unless I'm misreading them ???.

I will add the medi station in the next update (although when that will be is anyone's guess).

I think I'll leave out the special wargear section unless I get several more items.

I would love another game. It'd have to wait until at least Friday though. Uni, work and birthdays are filling my time at the moment. I really need to start my coursework that is due in ten days time :P.


Offline Mabbz

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Re: Kill Team Revamped
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2013, 11:52:05 PM »
The latest update has arrived! Here is a link to the DeviantArt page.

Changes:
- Introduction Page
- Layout Changes (I still have more to do, but I wanted to get this posted as soon as possible before the next playtest)
- Simplified corpse rules
- Minor changes to when Klaxon counters are gained
- Warlord traits
- Added Medical Station special terrain
- Slight change to how the "Still Not Dead" heroic action works
- Kill Teams now get 5 narrative points as standard, rather than 3

Now then, one thing I thought of when writing the introduction was that the name Kill Team is already taken by the original 4th edition rules and one of the Battle Missions. As such, to avoid confusion I am considering renaming the book itself to something else, possibly "Warhammer 40,000: Special Operations" or Spec Ops for short. I wouldn't change the rules themselves (a kill team would remain a kill team), just the rulebook as a whole.

Thoughts?

Oh, I just remembered I credited you, Narric, in the introduction section. I meant to ask you if that was Ok before posting it, but I forgot. If you want me to take you out then just let me know ;).

Offline Narric

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Re: Kill Team Revamped
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2013, 07:26:51 AM »
I'm ok with being credited. You could always add a link to my blog or DA page in the Artist box, that would be nice *subtle wink*

Most I can see wrong are some grammer and punctuation erros. You also have a random blank page (14), any reason for that? :P

Offline Mabbz

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Re: Kill Team Revamped
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2013, 09:04:47 AM »
I'm ok with being credited. You could always add a link to my blog or DA page in the Artist box, that would be nice *subtle wink*
Artist box? Do you mean the description section below the PDF?


Most I can see wrong are some grammer and punctuation erros. You also have a random blank page (14), any reason for that? :P
Dammit, I'm sure I got rid of that blank page :facepalm001:. I hadn't noticed any grammar and punctuation errors though, so if you could point them out that'd be great.