Author Topic: Covert Operations (a kill team remake)  (Read 14891 times)

Offline InsaneTD

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Re: Kill Team Revamped
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2013, 02:12:40 AM »
What about jet/jump pack units that have the stealth and/or shroud usr? How do the changes effect those?

Offline Mabbz

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Re: Kill Team Revamped
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2013, 02:44:42 AM »
Hmm... Maybe I could say that cover saves may be taken to prevent Klaxon counters being earned. Obviously LoS terrain would only provide cover against being spotted, but area terrain and stealth/shrouded provide a save against any form of klaxon counter gain.

That won't be playtested until I get a few games with the latest rules in, but it's a good point. I already intended (and forgot) to write that LoS is needed to spot an enemy.

Offline InsaneTD

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Re: Kill Team Revamped
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2013, 07:17:06 AM »
The reason I ask was I was thinking stealth suits.

Offline Mabbz

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Re: Kill Team Revamped
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2013, 09:34:56 AM »
Well, in the current rules they get no advantage over any other model, which is a bit silly. If I add the rule from my last post, they would get a 5+ save against all instances of a klaxon counter being added, that could be improved by hiding in terrain.

Offline Narric

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Re: Kill Team Revamped
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2013, 12:38:08 PM »
Hey Mabbz, I had an idea for Kill Team.

As you an I know, when the Kill team playeris forced to go guns blazing, the Defending player racks up Klaxon counters like nobodies business. One thing that could give the Kill Team player a bit more chance is this:

"For every Sentry/Defending model killed by the KT player, the Defending players loses one Klaxon counter accrued earlier in the game."

This sort of works, as you remember our first game I killed a  model that had spotted mine, and had this rule been in place, I may have stood a better chance, both at controlling defending models but also getting past unaware sentries due to spotting distance being too short.

There are two other ways it could be used.
1. If the model that spotted the KT model is killed the Klaxon counter roll if successful must be re-rolled.
2. Klaxon counters may only be removed if the KT model is not within Spotting distance of a defending model.

Make sense? What do you think?

Offline Mabbz

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Re: Kill Team Revamped
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2013, 02:44:32 PM »
Hey Mabbz, I had an idea for Kill Team.

As you an I know, when the Kill team playeris forced to go guns blazing, the Defending player racks up Klaxon counters like nobodies business. One thing that could give the Kill Team player a bit more chance is this:

"For every Sentry/Defending model killed by the KT player, the Defending players loses one Klaxon counter accrued earlier in the game."

This sort of works, as you remember our first game I killed a  model that had spotted mine, and had this rule been in place, I may have stood a better chance, both at controlling defending models but also getting past unaware sentries due to spotting distance being too short.

There are two other ways it could be used.
1. If the model that spotted the KT model is killed the Klaxon counter roll if successful must be re-rolled.
2. Klaxon counters may only be removed if the KT model is not within Spotting distance of a defending model.

Make sense? What do you think?
I like the idea of being able to remove Klaxon counters. I'm not sure if killing sentries is the best way to do it though; I'd want the rule to promote stealth over slaughter. Perhaps:

"If no Klaxon counters are accrued over a full player turn, the Defending player loses one Klaxon counter accrued earlier in the game."

This still applies if sentries are aware, leaving the kill team with a dilemma: silence the sentry before he can raise the alarm, or hide and make the most of the element of surprise while you have it.

If I add a turn limit (I was thinking 8-10 turns...?) to ensure the KT wont just kill a sentry squad, hide until the heat dies down, rinse and repeat.

Offline InsaneTD

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Re: Kill Team Revamped
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2013, 04:47:17 PM »
Just say that you can't lose a klaxon counter two turns in a row.doubles the time it takes for them to disappear and you don't want to be just sitting around when you have the element of surprise. It makes it more likely you'll be found if you take longer. Having a couple time sensitive missions would be good as well. You don't always get the kind of time you want to do a mission.

Offline Mabbz

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Re: Kill Team Revamped
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2013, 07:19:47 PM »
Just say that you can't lose a klaxon counter two turns in a row.doubles the time it takes for them to disappear and you don't want to be just sitting around when you have the element of surprise. It makes it more likely you'll be found if you take longer. Having a couple time sensitive missions would be good as well. You don't always get the kind of time you want to do a mission.
Or to put it another way, they are lost every game turn that they stay quiet, rather than every player turn. I wont make a decision on that until I playtest it.

On a subject related to timed missions, I could do with a few more missions. So far we have Sabotage, Assassination, Hit & Run and Reconnaissance. Reconnaissance hasn't been tested, but the others are straight forward and seem fine so far. I'd like at least two more missions so you can just roll a d6 to choose one. The original rules had Escape (get from one side to the other) and Last Stand (Kill everything). I don't like Last Stand, but Escape would probably still work. Any ideas for other missions?

Offline InsaneTD

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Re: Kill Team Revamped
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2013, 03:49:25 AM »
How about extraction?

General idea: the kill team is being sent to help extract another team after a mission.

The team has say, four turns to get into position, getting as few Klaxon counters as possible (if you don't want too many models in game, then half of each players models start in reserve with the kill team half being the ones extracted, the defense ones are chasing/being sent to cut off the escape). They then have to wait d3 turns for the other team to show up, then have say, 6 turns to get out before their escape is cut off.

Alternate escape; the team have to secure the area during the rendezvous and wait for a vehicle to pick them up.


Also, Rescue.

General idea:the team is being sent in to rescue an important asset.

The team need to infiltrate a prison/hq and rescue someone (Captain/another team/spy/etc). They have to search for the prisoner(s) while getting as few klaxons as possible. Once they have found them, they have to then get out.
The defending player sets up a number of counters and the kill team have to look at each one to see if the rescuee is there. The defending player might know where he is or the team roll a d6 and the person to be rescued is there on a 4+. If they get too many klaxon counters then the enemy kill/move the prisoner(s) from the area.

Alternate scenario; the team has to go in and kidnap an enemy commander/official and need to subdue him before they can get it out.

Offline Mabbz

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Re: Kill Team Revamped
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2013, 10:58:26 AM »
Rescue is one I'd considered before, but I was concerned that it was too close to hit and run. Having the rescuee executed if the Klaxons get to high is a nice twist, though. I will most likely use it.

As for extraction, I'm a bit confused about how your idea would work, but it gave me inspiration for something similar:

The defender splits his forces in half. The Kill team gets to choose which half starts on the board and which is in reserves. The defender sets up half his force as normal, then the KT chooses one board edge to arrive from. The KT arrives from reserves in turn one, the second half of the defender's force arrives from the same edge in turn three. The defender starts with two klaxon counters, all his sentries are activated from the start, and cannot drop below one. The Kill Team has to survive for the full time limit, at which point they are extracted and win. Getting to a specific location to be extracted is another possible rule.


Another thing to think about: secondary objectives. In the next update, I intend to do a complete overhaul of the missions so they work on a victory points basis. So I need to come up with points for each primary objective, as well as some secondary objectives. Here's what I have so far:

Kill Team secondary objectives:
Slay the Base Leader. The Kill Team gets a victory point if they kill the Base Leader.

Ghosts. The Kill Team gets a victory point if the defender never has more than 3 Klaxon counters at any point in the game, and the alarm isn't raised.

No-one left behind. The Kill Team gets a victory point if they do not lose a single model.

Defender secondary objectives:
Slay the Team Leader. The Defender gets a victory point if they kill the Team Leader.

Payed with blood. The Defender gets a victory point if at least half the Kill Team is killed.

They won't get far. The Defender gets a victory point if the alarm is raised.

Offline Narric

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Re: Kill Team Revamped
« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2013, 12:45:10 AM »
My idea for making the Kill Team a bit stronger, was increasing their points cap. Even before hitting max of ten models, its all too easy to hit the points cap, especially with more resilient/techy armies like (Chaos) Space Marines. However, keep the 10-man cap.

Of course if this goes through, the Defence team should have an increase as well, but not as much. Maybe 300:200 for Defenders:Kill Team? 300 also brings the Defending side closer to what a Combat patrol would be, and more people would be familiar/comfortable at that level. Increasing the Kill Team allowance to 200pts means they can squeeze in those two extra people, who could tip the balance in their favour, or add that one tactics changing piece of wargear.

Doing this would make the Kill Team player have to decide more strategically with the army list alone, which means more thought out lists, and potentially stronger lists. you've seen with mine that I try to keep to a single squad, mostly because multiple squads gets confusing and complex, but also becuase a single squad is easier to max out with ten models.

What do you think?

Offline Mabbz

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Re: Kill Team Revamped
« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2013, 01:05:05 AM »
Ah, points limits. That's probably the one thing I'd want to playtest separately to any other rules changes. If we do decide to test your idea, it won't be until after we've had a couple of games with the next update.

Your reasoning looks good. I'll be honest, the only reason the limit on Kill Teams is 160pts is because that's what it was in the original rules. If changing it helps, then I have no problem with doing so. As long as playtesting indicates it's an improvement, I'll do it.

The Defender's point limit has equally poor justification. The original rules didn't let you choose the defender's forces at all; you picked an army and used a bunch of basic troops and a leader, the number and type of which were fixed in the rules (18 gun drones + shas'ui, 15 space marines + veteran sergeant, etc.). Most of them came to ~230-250pts, so I picked 250 on a whim, intending to balance it with special rules and the like.

In short, we'll try it at some point and see how it goes.

Offline Narric

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Re: Kill Team Revamped
« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2013, 01:11:25 AM »
Sounds fair enough :)

Offline Mabbz

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Re: Kill Team Revamped
« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2013, 09:52:01 PM »
Something new to discuss. I was considering writing a section to let people use Kill Teams as part of a Defence force, or even in regular games of 40k. The idea's simple enough, I'd just rule that they can be taken as an elite's choice, gain the infiltrate USR (useless in kill team game, only used in regular 40k) and lose the independant character rule (if one of the team is the Base Leader, he would regain it).

Thoughts?

Offline Mabbz

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Re: Kill Team Revamped
« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2013, 02:13:36 PM »
I've not felt too good recently, but I finally got round to doing this. Version 1.3 is here. Why 1.3? Because I checked this thread and found two other update posts which are now 1.1 and 1.2.

Anyways, here's the list of changes. I haven't added any new scenarios yet, but that is on its way. Also, I just realised I need to change the contents page, so that'll happen soon too.

V1.3 change list
- Started properly keeping track of updates :P
- Layout fix (removed blank page)
- Cover saves may prevent klaxon counter being accrued
- Kill Teams may reduce the klaxon count by avoiding detection
- Points limits changed
- Removed roster sheet (people tend to make their own anyway)
- ‘Playing a Game’ section added
- Victory points for primary and secondary mission objectives added