Opinions about Dark Angels

[crisis_vyper]

I have edited my response. It got lost in the warp without me realizing until now.

[Matt1785]

I actually think that the Dark Angels Codex is one of the best Codicies I have seen in quite a while.  There is a lot of variety and the ability to really get into an army with some characterful looks.  The idea of the 'don't know how many successors' really opens it up for hobbyists to go nuts with making their own break-off Angel armies.

Hard-hitting wise I believe that are one of the more balanced armies I have seen without trying to create a horribly broken list.  I was VERY pleasantly surprised to read this book and the rules and wargear.  I mean the options are very numerous and the ability to make every army dangerous is great.  This is a book where we may see fluff lists not lose (As others have said) and thank God if this is where GW will start taking it.  Fluff lists that work is fantastic.  I really enjoyed the book, and I was someone who was saying they shouldn't get one and get wrapped into the Space Marine book, shame on me.  Well written and well done on this one.

[Scout Sergeant Mkoll]

I haven't seen much of the codex, but what I have seen irritates the hell out of me. The Black Knights are absolutely absurd. 15pts more than Ravenwing? They should be paying more than that for the twin linked plasma alone, never mind the S5 and Rending and whatever else they get.

The Darkshroud feels a bit too cheap to me too. Marine bikes, especially now that they're cheaper, are more than durable enough without having Stealth thrown in on top.

The rest of the codex I've not really had too much chance to look at, but from what I've heard I really don't see how this codex is balanced. Large blast plasma on a land speeder, cheaper fliers that can seemingly own a Storm Raven, An entire unite with Precision Strike, oh and a HQ that can choose which Warlord Trait he wants? Remind me again, how much time have the Chaos characters spent fighting compared to Azrael?

I'll have a better idea of how bad it is next week after looking through the codex properly, but so far it's not looking good.

[crisis_vyper]

I haven't seen much of the codex, but what I have seen irritates the hell out of me. The Black Knights are absolutely absurd. 15pts more than Ravenwing? They should be paying more than that for the twin linked plasma alone, never mind the S5 and Rending and whatever else they get.

They have no invul saves, and their plasma talons have a range of 18" and a rapid fire range of 9". Not to mention that they still die like normal bikers. To be honest I think they cost too much for what they do, and this goes for the command squad as well. I would love to play the Black Knights as well, but I feel that having a squad of more than 6 of them is just plain foolish.

They are strong, but overcosted.

The Darkshroud feels a bit too cheap to me too. Marine bikes, especially now that they're cheaper, are more than durable enough without having Stealth thrown in on top.

The Darkshroud have Shrouded, but they do not benefit from their own Stealth bubble which only benefits those that are within 6" of them. So if it moved it is just a 3+ cover save, and a 2+ if they turboboosted. Not to mention that they only have one heaby bolter and the assault cannon cost 20 points to upgrade on. And the way the FAQ and codex ruling is set up, two Darkshrouds could not confer their Stealth fields upon each other and have to rely on their own Shrouding to carry through the day. Combined this with the same hullpoints and AV as a normal Land Speeder but being much larger, it is almost a challenge to hide them properly from incoming fire. A Shrouded vehicle could only protect itself so much.

It is a good support unit, but no offensive power whatsoever. For those that seek to use their slot for more offensive gameplay, the Darkshroud is not their friend. For those that loves to have an increased defense, Darkshroud is quite possibly the most interesting unit to use.

As for the Bikes, this is offset by their rather small size of 3-6 Bikers. I personally wanted more bikers.

The rest of the codex I've not really had too much chance to look at, but from what I've heard I really don't see how this codex is balanced. Large blast plasma on a land speeder, cheaper fliers that can seemingly own a Storm Raven, An entire unite with Precision Strike, oh and a HQ that can choose which Warlord Trait he wants? Remind me again, how much time have the Chaos characters spent fighting compared to Azrael?

1) Large blast plasma with a range of 24" on a 2 Hull Point AV 10 all around speeder? Overcosted for what it does.

2) It is generally accepted that the DA flyers suck balls hard. Their guns are okay against other low armoured flyers and light vehicles, but anything AV12 and above give the Nephilim flyer problems to gun down. Especially when the Stormraven and Vendetta have much heavier armament than the Nephilim. The Dark Talon is just pathetic with its own weapons, which does not do much against land targets. Funnily enough, Typhoons, Plasma talons, and flakk missiles are your best anti-air weaponry.

3) The precision strike unit a.k.a Deathwing Knights can only do so in Close combat, and even then the meta and the firepower of most list could wipe them off the map easily. Also they are really expensive for what they do.

Azrael can only choose the Warlord Traits from the Dark Angels book, and that ability does not extent  itself to the Warlord Traits of the main rulebook. From the book, the Dark Angels warlord trait is average at most. The truly game-altering ones are from the main rulebook.

In my opinion, this book is perhaps the first Marine book where it feels like they are trying not to make everything overpowered for once. If you want the good stuff, they are really expensive and would bust a bank on ya. Allies are an important aspect that would allow this book to be played more competitively, Guard being the best ally for them.  By itself it is a fun but strong enough book, but not enough to actually be broken through and through like the days of Siren Daemonbomb of 4th edition. In addition, this is the first Marine book that is not brain-dead to me, as there is a lot to think about when it comes to the list composition and how you want to function on the field. Most Marine books I read, I kinda knew the future template of the army and most often I was right on the dot, but for the Dark Angels there is much more variety that you can go about.

For that I congratulate Jeremy Vetock on his first 40k codex, and I hope that he writes more codex for 40k.

Hearing is one thing, reading it is another, but reading it properly and seeing it practically is the business of the day.

[Wargamer]

See, Mkoll? I told you Black Knights weren't OP.

My thoughts on the book, aside from the fact that the new vehicles can sap IQ points from the reader, is that the Codex hates Dark Angels.

It doesn't hate Deathwing; they're big and scary and cool as ever. It doesn't hate Ravenwing; even without the idiotic vehicles, they got enough new toys to make them feel fun. It certainly doesn't hate combining both of the above into a roving hunter-killer party.

No, what it hates are the guys in green. The Codex has gone out of its way to marginalise the bulk of the Dark Angels in favour of the first two Companies. All the new stuff is Deathwing or Ravenwing exclusively; most of the artwork and pictures in the book seem to have no 'normal' Dark Angels, or else they are pushed to the back to show off the elites. It might sound a strange complaint, but it is Codex: Dark Angels, not Codex: Deathwing and Ravenwing.

[Narric]

Maybe for players who want to play Bog Standard DAs, they should just use the SMurf codex?

I did notice that all the new model kits were either Deathwing or Ravenwing based, but not having the codex, I didn't notice that those two groups were favoured.

[Arguleon-veq]

I dont really think black knights die like normal biks as you should be getting a 3+ cover with them. Im not sure about normal DA getting overlooked in the book either as the best builds for the codex at the min are based around a horde of regular marines and land raider crusaders pumping out unholy amount of bolt rounds.

[crisis_vyper]

I dont really think black knights die like normal biks as you should be getting a 3+ cover with them.

3+ cover is the same as a 3+ armour save when it comes to most anti-infantry weapons. It juest gives them a chance to roll against those low AP weapons like lascannons or Krak missiles. Pepper enough shots into a Black Knight and they buckle.

Splinter weaponry, Blastmasters and the baleflamer are of course different beasts altogether.

[Wargamer]

Where do you get 3+ cover from out of interest? They get a 4+ jink due to Skilled Riders, but unless they've got stealth or are turbo-boosting (so can't shoot or charge...) they're on 4+.

[Arguleon-veq]

Yeah it is a 4+ but if people are going to use them they really should be backing them up with a darkshroud as you need as much protection as you can get on such a big points investment.

I actually think black knights may work pretty well in the dakka build. They can hide out of LOS behind the standard 2 or 3 crusaders and dart forward when your lines are threatened, they will also act as nice anti air for anything flying over your lines.

[Chicop76]

Yeah it is a 4+ but if people are going to use them they really should be backing them up with a darkshroud as you need as much protection as you can get on such a big points investment.

I actually think black knights may work pretty well in the dakka build. They can hide out of LOS behind the standard 2 or 3 crusaders and dart forward when your lines are threatened, they will also act as nice anti air for anything flying over your lines.

Even better is with scout they can outflank. With a 12" move and 18" range they have a good chance of hitting units coming from the flank. If they come out one the wrong side with 24" movement they can correct that and next turn be within firing range.

[Scout Sergeant Mkoll]

I haven't seen much of the codex, but what I have seen irritates the hell out of me. The Black Knights are absolutely absurd. 15pts more than Ravenwing? They should be paying more than that for the twin linked plasma alone, never mind the S5 and Rending and whatever else they get.

They have no invul saves, and their plasma talons have a range of 18" and a rapid fire range of 9". Not to mention that they still die like normal bikers. To be honest I think they cost too much for what they do, and this goes for the command squad as well. I would love to play the Black Knights as well, but I feel that having a squad of more than 6 of them is just plain foolish.

They are strong, but overcosted.

Bullshit. If you have the equpiment you pay the points for it regardless of your survivability. Whes don't become more survivable due to Haywires or Hydra Gauntlets etc, but they pay the price for them, same goes for everyone else and it should apply to the Black Knights, ergo they are undercosted. Also, they have an effective range of 30" and effective rapid fire range of 21", a match for normal plasma at full range and greater rapid fire range. Throw in twin-linked and Skilled Riders meaning they don't even suffer for moving through terrain like normal bikes and there's NO way they're overcosted. And that's just taking into account the plasma, never mind their S5, second attack, Rending in combat, Skilled Riders etc. Oh, and let's not forget that Ravenwing get teleport homers for fething free.

The Darkshroud have Shrouded, but they do not benefit from their own Stealth bubble which only benefits those that are within 6" of them. So if it moved it is just a 3+ cover save, and a 2+ if they turboboosted. Not to mention that they only have one heaby bolter and the assault cannon cost 20 points to upgrade on. And the way the FAQ and codex ruling is set up, two Darkshrouds could not confer their Stealth fields upon each other and have to rely on their own Shrouding to carry through the day. Combined this with the same hullpoints and AV as a normal Land Speeder but being much larger, it is almost a challenge to hide them properly from incoming fire. A Shrouded vehicle could only protect itself so much.

It is a good support unit, but no offensive power whatsoever. For those that seek to use their slot for more offensive gameplay, the Darkshroud is not their friend. For those that loves to have an increased defense, Darkshroud is quite possibly the most interesting unit to use.

I'm sorry, but no. That's a poor attempt at defending the unit. The venomthrope for Tyranids is less far survivable, less maeouverable, has no offensive capability whatsoever in combat or shooting and gives a flat 5+ cover save. If it was changed to confer Shrouding, or even Stealth instead there would be so many cries of "Cheese" it's not even funny, and I know this for a fact because I've suggested changing it to that in my house rules. Furthermore, Marines do NOT need boosted bloody cover saves!! The Xenos armies, you know, the guys with no armour to speak of and who tend to be combat orientated, need boosted cover saves, not the walking tanks of the Imperium. This unit shouldn't exist and isn't even costed accurately now that it does.

1) Large blast plasma with a range of 24" on a 2 Hull Point AV 10 all around speeder? Overcosted for what it does.

2) It is generally accepted that the DA flyers suck balls hard. Their guns are okay against other low armoured flyers and light vehicles, but anything AV12 and above give the Nephilim flyer problems to gun down. Especially when the Stormraven and Vendetta have much heavier armament than the Nephilim. The Dark Talon is just pathetic with its own weapons, which does not do much against land targets. Funnily enough, Typhoons, Plasma talons, and flakk missiles are your best anti-air weaponry.

3) The precision strike unit a.k.a Deathwing Knights can only do so in Close combat, and even then the meta and the firepower of most list could wipe them off the map easily. Also they are really expensive for what they do.

Azrael can only choose the Warlord Traits from the Dark Angels book, and that ability does not extent  itself to the Warlord Traits of the main rulebook. From the book, the Dark Angels warlord trait is average at most. The truly game-altering ones are from the main rulebook.

1) It's a Land Speeder with the ability to remove a unit of Terminators from the game in a single volley. It bloody well should be expensive. Unless it comes in at ~120 I sincerely doubt it's overcosted. I know it could scatter, but there's a 4/9 chance of a direct hit so it's not exactly what you'd call unreliable.

2) The fliers, fair enough, I've gone on hearsay alone, I don't know what weapons they pack so I'll reserve judgement until I see them properly.

3) I don't care if it's combat only or not. The ability was removed from Paladins and Ork Nobs because it was a bloody retarded idea. It's no more sensible here.

4) That he can choose at all is stupid. The Chaos characters are survivors of the Heresy but don't get to choose, Bjorn is another, I doubt he'll get the ability to choose and Dante is the longest survivng Chapter Master at the minute, but I doubt he'll get to choose either. And frankly, they shouldn't. Part of what makes the Warlord Traits balanced is that they're either chosen for you or random, letting people choose removes that. Oh, and the Dark Angels traits can't be all that bad. The Hunt is an improved version of a rulebook trait for a start.

See, Mkoll? I told you Black Knights weren't OP.

1 person agreeing with you and 1 bad experience using them doesn't make you right.

My thoughts on the book, aside from the fact that the new vehicles can sap IQ points from the reader, is that the Codex hates Dark Angels.

Yes, how dare they make Dark Angels pay a whole 1point for And They Shall Know No Fear and Stubborn. How dare they allow heavy weapons in 5 man squads again, it's clearly a sign that nobody likes Dark Angels and they shall forever wallow in the pits of mediocrity. Oh, wait. No, my mistake. They're now cheaper than Grey Hunters, with access to heavy weapons and Stuborn thrown in for the hell of it. The lack of art work, fair enough, but no the army list does not hate Dark Angels. Far from it.

[Arguleon-veq]

I think the dark angels book is great because it has really good internal balance and many effectibe builds and play styles. I do think it is a pretty powerful book though and could cause daemons and necrons some problems although necrons can quickly counter this if they start to use doom scythes again to deal with those crusaders [although having said that I lost a fully intact land raider in 1 turn to 9 immortals shooting it at long range last week...]

[Will's on Fire]

I haven't seen much of the codex, but what I have seen irritates the hell out of me. The Black Knights are absolutely absurd. 15pts more than Ravenwing? They should be paying more than that for the twin linked plasma alone, never mind the S5 and Rending and whatever else they get.

They have no invul saves, and their plasma talons have a range of 18" and a rapid fire range of 9". Not to mention that they still die like normal bikers. To be honest I think they cost too much for what they do, and this goes for the command squad as well. I would love to play the Black Knights as well, but I feel that having a squad of more than 6 of them is just plain foolish.

They are strong, but overcosted.

Hamster. If you have the equpiment you pay the points for it regardless of your survivability. Whes don't become more survivable due to Haywires or Hydra Gauntlets etc, but they pay the price for them, same goes for everyone else and it should apply to the Black Knights, ergo they are undercosted. Also, they have an effective range of 30" and effective rapid fire range of 21", a match for normal plasma at full range and greater rapid fire range. Throw in twin-linked and Skilled Riders meaning they don't even suffer for moving through terrain like normal bikes and there's NO way they're overcosted. And that's just taking into account the plasma, never mind their S5, second attack, Rending in combat, Skilled Riders etc. Oh, and let's not forget that Ravenwing get teleport homers for fething free.

They are more points than a terminator, and have a worse save. Treat them as such and you get them. They won't really break the codex on their own, for sure.

1) Large blast plasma with a range of 24" on a 2 Hull Point AV 10 all around speeder? Overcosted for what it does.

2) It is generally accepted that the DA flyers suck balls hard. Their guns are okay against other low armoured flyers and light vehicles, but anything AV12 and above give the Nephilim flyer problems to gun down. Especially when the Stormraven and Vendetta have much heavier armament than the Nephilim. The Dark Talon is just pathetic with its own weapons, which does not do much against land targets. Funnily enough, Typhoons, Plasma talons, and flakk missiles are your best anti-air weaponry.

3) The precision strike unit a.k.a Deathwing Knights can only do so in Close combat, and even then the meta and the firepower of most list could wipe them off the map easily. Also they are really expensive for what they do.

Azrael can only choose the Warlord Traits from the Dark Angels book, and that ability does not extent  itself to the Warlord Traits of the main rulebook. From the book, the Dark Angels warlord trait is average at most. The truly game-altering ones are from the main rulebook.

1) It's a Land Speeder with the ability to remove a unit of Terminators from the game in a single volley. It bloody well should be expensive. Unless it comes in at ~120 I sincerely doubt it's overcosted. I know it could scatter, but there's a 4/9 chance of a direct hit so it's not exactly what you'd call unreliable.

2) The fliers, fair enough, I've gone on hearsay alone, I don't know what weapons they pack so I'll reserve judgement until I see them properly.

3) I don't care if it's combat only or not. The ability was removed from Paladins and Ork Nobs because it was a bloody retarded idea. It's no more sensible here.

4) That he can choose at all is stupid. The Chaos characters are survivors of the Heresy but don't get to choose, Bjorn is another, I doubt he'll get the ability to choose and Dante is the longest survivng Chapter Master at the minute, but I doubt he'll get to choose either. And frankly, they shouldn't. Part of what makes the Warlord Traits balanced is that they're either chosen for you or random, letting people choose removes that. Oh, and the Dark Angels traits can't be all that bad. The Hunt is an improved version of a rulebook trait for a start.

1) It's 140 points.
2) They're far worse than DEldar ones.
3) Crisis has explained it fine.
4) They're not bad, but they really aren't great.

See, Mkoll? I told you Black Knights weren't OP.

1 person agreeing with you and 1 bad experience using them doesn't make you right.

They aren't OP. They're good, but they're certainly not Jaws of the World Wolf or Doom.

My thoughts on the book, aside from the fact that the new vehicles can sap IQ points from the reader, is that the Codex hates Dark Angels.

Yes, how dare they make Dark Angels pay a whole 1point for And They Shall Know No Fear and Stubborn. How dare they allow heavy weapons in 5 man squads again, it's clearly a sign that nobody likes Dark Angels and they shall forever wallow in the pits of mediocrity. Oh, wait. No, my mistake. They're now cheaper than Grey Hunters, with access to heavy weapons and Stuborn thrown in for the hell of it. The lack of art work, fair enough, but no the army list does not hate Dark Angels. Far from it.

The stubborn also means they can't choose to run from a combat. You get a dread in combat with them, they can't choose to run away. Grey Hunters are still a lot better. Plus they have to pay for a sergeant who will have the extra leadership and attack. They end up matching a normal tactical squad from the SM book to match them.

My best advice is get a good look at the book and then come back to this. You'll find that most of the points you've made can be sorted by realising when you read it, it is a balanced book.

- Will

[Wargamer]

3) I don't care if it's combat only or not. The ability was removed from Paladins and Ork Nobs because it was a bloody retarded idea. It's no more sensible here.

Mkoll, nobody was complaining about Precision Strike on Nobs and Paladins. What they were complaining about was everyone being a Character, allowing you to employ Look Out, Sir on every model in the unit and thus bounce wounds around to the point where it was borderline impossible to actually kill off vital members of the squad.