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The Marine Misconception

Started by Arguleon-veq, January 18, 2013, 09:59:30 PM

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Arguleon-veq

The Marine Misconception

There has always been a lot of negativity around Space Marines, from people complaining about the amount of models they get, their coverage in the fluff to their competitiveness on the table.  This will always happen and that isn
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The Man They Call Jayne

Personally I agree. Vanilla Marines are no longer the powerhouses they were when they were new. Until a new codex comes out they are pretty sub par, although if played well they are still very capable. They have a good flyer in the Storm Raven, and while on the more costly side, they have got very capable units in the Tactical Marine. Far from being able to walk around, they are able to soak up fire quite capably, take a hit and dish out enough damage to make them a concern. A table full of foot slogging marines is a force to be reckoned with.
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Arguleon-veq

Normal Space Marines dont get a Storm Raven which is another problem for them. Despite a 3+ save they dont even take firepower that well compared to other units. You can get 30 Orks for the price of 10 marines which instantly invalidates that 3+ save in terms of points effeciency and thats without considering AP3 weapons and cover.

I actually wont take Tac Squads in a marine army as scouts offer much better value.
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The Man They Call Jayne

They have a data sheet for it don't they. Little thing with Missile Launchers and a nose mounted TL Assault Cannon?
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Narric

Quote from: The Man They Call Jayne on January 18, 2013, 10:46:30 PM
They have a data sheet for it don't they. Little thing with Missile Launchers and a nose mounted TL Assault Cannon?
You're thinking of the Storm Talon. Which is pretty much a 40k Helicopter. :P The Stormraven is the Flying Land Raider.




As I'm jumping into this thread I might as well add my view.

MY experience with Space Marine players has often been against younger gamers. Some being too young in my opinion, as they often can't put a model together without melting half the detail off.

When I played against these young gamers, they often didn't have a clue about half the abilities afforded them by the codex. Some had an idea what they could do, and these were also the ones that listened when given advice.

I usually just see Space Marines (Of any flavour) as the poster boys of 40k and GW. Heck, they have a statue of a Space Marine outside the Nottingham HQ. As such, they're the most recognised, and so most new players are more familiar, hence why they pick them up first. I'd back this reasoning up with my own experience of joining the hobby, which was through the Fire Warrior PS2 game. I was more familar with Tau, and instantly picked them up (Codex, and a squad of Fire Warriors, followed soon by a Battleforce).

My gripes about SM are currently the number of Codexi that can be used to represent them. I understand that to have all Space Marines loaded into one book would be highly impractical, but surely similar flavours could be stuck together more cleanly. Having said that, I find the Vanilla codexi a useful reference point to the structure of the more recent editions' codexi.

Now I'll answer you questions, as I see them
-   What powerful units do Space Marines have that worry you as an opposing player?
Simple enough. Terminators (either Shooting or Combat) are my bane. Though T4, that 2+ Armour can be very difficult to crack.

-   What makes them so easy to use?
Going by Vanilla dex (from memory), everything is very clear on how it could be used. You don't have to look at several units simultaneously to think of a strategy. You can, but its not necessary.

-   What specific power builds do they have?
Hmm. none spring to mind. Most Power-builds of Space Marines come from the Flavoured codexi, rather than the Vanilla. I guess Bike Spam could have been one up until Dark Angels got the rebuff.

Arguleon-veq

Yeah thats the Storm Talon, its pretty rubbish compared to the Raven.

Terminators are probably the very best thing in the book but even those are pretty poor compared to units other armies get. Shooting termies die too easy and TH/SS termies are too slow to be a threat to most forces.

In every codex for every army almost every unit has a clear use. Dark Reapers are for shooting, Slugga Boyz are for combat etc. I thinkn if anything Marines are one of the few codex where a lot of units dont have a defined role or at least a role that they are good at.

Other Marine variants are very powerful but Vanilla Marines arent.
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Chicop76

I fear storm shiel terminators and the whirlwind depending on what I am playing. Other than that when I play them I do think easy win.

Ever since 3rd edition I would say I never feared them. The only thing that use to scare me was the old rending on the assault cannon. With the assault cannon nerf they do not have much to work with.

Tht being said I still think it is a noob army. Why?

1. It is much cheaper to buy marines than majority of the armies you mentioned. Marines can easily be fielded at 250 dollar american while the others hit your pocket books at 500 through 1k american.

2. Overall rules are simple compared to most.

3. Also marine aries really do not have to worry about falling back. #3 is not as big in 6th as in other editions, but #3 is rather annoying since they auto regroup the next turn which most armies can not do so.


2. Over all rules are simpl


Aun

Quote-   What powerful units do Space Marines have that worry you as an opposing player?
Sternguard in drop pods deployed with Librarians that have Gate of Infinity as well as another annoying support power. Sternguard are expensive, but their soooo damn flexible and can reliably deal with just about any type of threat you send them after.
Need to kill a monstrous creature? Hellfire rounds can down them pretty reliably by weight of wounds.
Need to kill a lot of GEQ? Dragonfire rounds should kill a dozen of them at rapid fire range.
Tack a couple of combi-meltas on the squad and they should never really let you down; if you use them wisely...

Quote-   What makes them so easy to use?
I honestly agree with your post completely. Vanilla Marines are a tough book that dont really have any exploitable gimmicks. You really have to out-think and out-play your opponent when you play with them. They are a very challenging, but also a very rewarding army to play with.

Quote-   What specific power builds do they have?
The only thing that comes to my mind is Sternguard spam with a squad or two of terminators with scouts for troops.

crisis_vyper

Quote from: Arguleon-veq on January 18, 2013, 09:59:30 PM
The Marine Misconception

There has always been a lot of negativity around Space Marines, from people complaining about the amount of models they get, their coverage in the fluff to their competitiveness on the table.  This will always happen and that isn

Chris

I think I would tend to agree with most of what has been said in this thread so far.
I started 40K with Black templars, a notoriously tough army to start with, coupled alongside some bad advice and unsupporting parents, I wasn't able to commit much to it. So i moved to Vanilla marines.

A bit of an easier set up some might argue and previously they have been. With Tac Squad spam and devestators, I used to run a Horde style marines army and this was relatively sucessful.

With the release of the new codex, my play style was forced to change. Istead I adopted 10 assault termies with TH / SS and Shrike ( I wasn't the most popular person in my group) this too worked quite well, but being such a smaller, elite army I had to think a lot more about it.

All in all, I have always been a marine player (apart from a brief foray into IG) and I have definately found that in order to run a good, effective army, you need to be very quick thinking. Be prepared to be out numbers and out classed. but also not to be afraid to whither the enemies firepower.

As for when playing against other Marines, it can often turn into a 'My gun is bigger than yours' contest. What do I most fear? Land Raiders and Terminators. With a lot of hurt packed up in a nice solid bunker, it forces you to focus on cracking that nut.

Carrelio

I'd say it's more of a misconception of a misconception actually...
When people say Marines are easy/OP to play they are rarely thinking of vanilla marines from codex Space Marines. When people say these things they are thinking of the Space Wolves who ruled tournaments for the majority of 5th edition, the Blood Angels who said everything in our army moves very fast and has FNP deal with it, the Grey Knights who said 'Mo'Dakka!' and then sliced everyone in half with power weapons, and now the Dark Angels who can synthesize through banners and unit combinations to outshoot imperial guard, or outfight chaos in close combat.
They are all still marines, but they are not the marines this thread is specifically thinking of. Now that said, these marines are not entirely over the top either, and I have no problem taking them on... but I think these much better represent the belief that marines are just crazy monstrous killing machines, since few rely on tactical marines and those who do can make them into something really scary (Dark Angels can build a crazy backfield bunker out of 2x10 tactical marines and a banner guy, giving them Salvo 2/4 weapons... so that's... kind of scary... 80 shots per turn and such.).
I do agree with you though, vanilla gets the short end of the stick, since it is just the plain marine bodies with none of the extra toppings...

Chicop76

Even so non vanallia marine armies have their short falls. Take Grey Knights for example your typical build would destroy most marines armies which will win you about 60% of your games since roughly 60% of the people out there play marines. Thanks to 6th edition you should beat daemons, force weapons and dakka will have you beat nids.

Grey Knights fall part when it is against guard, dark eldar. While against necrons and eldar it could be anybodies game.

My issue is like I said before match ups make a huge differance. If all you fight is marine armies and once a blue moon you fight xenos than you will gear vs marine and deal with the xenos when you come across them.

Old Witchhunters is a good example. Not many people knew what my army can do while I knew their marine army like the back of my hand. Daemons used to be like that as well. The armis are so rarely played why bother learning about it.

When you say x marines is in the top tier this happens.

1. You buy them
2. You bother to learn how they work


Arguleon-veq

I agree that  a lot of the problems stem from the other Marine Armies. Wolves didnt dominate the 5th ed tournament scene though, they did well but were never the top dogs. It went Leaf Blower Guard then Grey Knights [and we cant call the specific build that was dominating SM because it was 6x3 henchmen with Coteaz in Razorbacks, you usually only had 10 marines and they were purifiers] then Necrons started pushing at the end of 5th. I actually cant think of a time that any SM force was dominating the tournament scene [UK] since Vulkan MeltaPod spam was doing well when the 5th ed codex first come out. BA and SW always performed well but were never at the top IIRC.

I think one thing cropping up is that people are mixing 'simple to learn the rules of', with 'easy to play'. Marines are popular with new players because their rules are simple and stats are pretty unified, they are not easy to play though.

With regards to SM powerbuilds I did use a build to some success against power lists last edition but that was just taking all the best units and a list designed to specifically counter the meta at the time. I think it was running Las/Plas Razors, TH/SS Termies in a Las Land Raider with Libby, 3xLas/Autocannon Preds then Dakka Dreads just trying to match the other shooting based builds of the time but with the added threat of the raider and T's to draw fire.
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